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[Review] [SW] Scout Tactics

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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#141 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:19 pm

Manatikik wrote:Definitely agree with lefze on all his points about 2s FA. I would still say 1a is the best bet to give Scout some life. Anyone saying it will bring too much damage clearly hasn't played a SW (or SH) to even close to a medium level imo because it enables damage not increases it. I'd be ok with seeing it stay on EA and keeping EA at 7 points and see how that turns out; and if it is a little too much for a skirmish spec as well then we can always either tag it to GT or swap GT and EA's spots in the mastery trees.

Remember guys that no changes are written in permanent marker... They can always be reverted or tweaked; we are in an ALPHA after all.
I firmly believe 2 second cast, resist ignoring FA should be locked to a scout spec, this would require the changes being spread out over two speccable tactics. Glad someone sees the practical side of my arguments though.
lastalien wrote:2nd - bad idea. FA not only one spec. -35% AP cost - usefull tactics.

I propose to consider acid arrow. For example to make it caste 1s, add reduced dodge chance by 10%, or change its, in principle, making AoE effect with a radius of a 20ft.

Good idea I think to add disorient effect to Rapid fire.

As before, I offered to change the Flame arrow, adding the effect of reducing the resistance, it would help to use SW at the WB. So now that SW is not needed in WB.

Removing UF the developers made a big mistake, now SW, Squig, engineer became very weak, compared to other RDPS. To change that, improving skills is not possible, since improving the skills so much as you propose, would mean the new OP class.
One mans opinion I guess, it's widely agreed upon that the tactic is utterly useless. And even though it might help spamming eagle eye, the tactic as it is could easily be reworked into something way better.

Acid arrow changes would most likely not really change much for scout. Now I don't remember correctly if it stacks with pierce defense or not, but assuming it doesn't the change would mean nothing for scout as the spec already has so few options besides PD. Assuming it does stack, and becomes aoe, the main buff would most likely still be tied to a skirmish spec.

SW is still usable in warbands for bombing. Giving flame arrow a resist debuff changes nothing for warbands, all the other resist debuffs would overwrite it anyways. And I hoping for a stacking debuff would be kinda foolish at this point considering the SM thread.

Removing UF was done partially to be able to buff the classes without having to consider a morale that would double the damage once every minute. If all the changes in OPs proposal are implemented, sure, scout might become pretty broken. Implementing some of them and we might get a balanced, functional spec. Implementing any of the stuff you proposed, and we get nothing. The class is performing fine, the spec in question is not, and that's what all this is about.
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lastalien
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#142 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:08 pm

lefze wrote: One mans opinion I guess, it's widely agreed upon that the tactic is utterly useless. And even though it might help spamming eagle eye, the tactic as it is could easily be reworked into something way better.
EE spec is a good alternative to FA spec where there is the SW work in the party. And kill one use for another, I think is not right.
lefze wrote: Acid arrow changes would most likely not really change much for scout. Now I don't remember correctly if it stacks with pierce defense or not, but assuming it doesn't the change would mean nothing for scout as the spec already has so few options besides PD. Assuming it does stack, and becomes aoe, the main buff would most likely still be tied to a skirmish spec.
For EE spec scout armor debuff is needful also order have not aoe armor debuff. It will be 1st.
lefze wrote: SW is still usable in warbands for bombing. Giving flame arrow a resist debuff changes nothing for warbands, all the other resist debuffs would overwrite it anyways. And I hoping for a stacking debuff would be kinda foolish at this point considering the SM thread.
WB DD Need 6 BW, 1 Eng, 1 Slayer. - This is the most efficient and the developers strongly lead to this set
lefze wrote: Removing UF was done partially to be able to buff the classes without having to consider a morale that would double the damage once every minute. If all the changes in OPs proposal are implemented, sure, scout might become pretty broken. Implementing some of them and we might get a balanced, functional spec. Implementing any of the stuff you proposed, and we get nothing. The class is performing fine, the spec in question is not, and that's what all this is about.
I don't believe in the correct balance after the abolition UF. The developers just not enough time to offer an adequate replacement. Or it will require full concentration on this issue, which also seems unrealistic.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#143 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:55 pm

lastalien wrote:
lefze wrote: One mans opinion I guess, it's widely agreed upon that the tactic is utterly useless. And even though it might help spamming eagle eye, the tactic as it is could easily be reworked into something way better.
EE spec is a good alternative to FA spec where there is the SW work in the party. And kill one use for another, I think is not right.
lefze wrote: Acid arrow changes would most likely not really change much for scout. Now I don't remember correctly if it stacks with pierce defense or not, but assuming it doesn't the change would mean nothing for scout as the spec already has so few options besides PD. Assuming it does stack, and becomes aoe, the main buff would most likely still be tied to a skirmish spec.
For EE spec scout armor debuff is needful also order have not aoe armor debuff. It will be 1st.
lefze wrote: SW is still usable in warbands for bombing. Giving flame arrow a resist debuff changes nothing for warbands, all the other resist debuffs would overwrite it anyways. And I hoping for a stacking debuff would be kinda foolish at this point considering the SM thread.
WB DD Need 6 BW, 1 Eng, 1 Slayer. - This is the most efficient and the developers strongly lead to this set
lefze wrote: Removing UF was done partially to be able to buff the classes without having to consider a morale that would double the damage once every minute. If all the changes in OPs proposal are implemented, sure, scout might become pretty broken. Implementing some of them and we might get a balanced, functional spec. Implementing any of the stuff you proposed, and we get nothing. The class is performing fine, the spec in question is not, and that's what all this is about.
I don't believe in the correct balance after the abolition UF. The developers just not enough time to offer an adequate replacement. Or it will require full concentration on this issue, which also seems unrealistic.
Sigh, why bother splitting up the post like that?

Anyways, EE build is subpar, does not cover anything skirmish can't and is in general subpar. And don't tell me you wouldn't include a 2 sec fester in the build.

As very few/no one run SW heavy warbands anymore, who would really benefit from an aoe armor debuff? And the debuff is weak as **** in general. changing the skill won't make the spec relevant for anything. And BL tanks do in fact have aoe armor debuffs.

I agree BW is far superior to SW now for warbands, but this won't change by giving SW resist debuff, as that is already covered in all warbands, by several people. In a 6-man sure, it might benefit a BW, but still waaaaaay better to just run a second bw. And you don't have to spec for it either, making it not a scout buff, but a class wide one.

The class as a whole is very balanced even after the removal. While it suffered, it still remained very competitive. Changes have already been made, some for the better and some for the worse, and we have to believe more are coming. Right now scout specifically needs them the most, and changes should defintely be done without affecting other specs as they are actually performing well enough.
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lastalien
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#144 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:50 pm

lefze wrote: Anyways, EE build is subpar, does not cover anything skirmish can't and is in general subpar. And don't tell me you wouldn't include a 2 sec fester in the build.
EE Build is ok now. It was perfect when support with UF.
Constant pressure targets with lots of damage works well. Lacks the burst as before, but too late to cry about UF
3s FA too long cast for this build. Have not place for FA tactic in EE build, or need decrise AP cost for EE. But 2s FA will be OP.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#145 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:13 pm

lastalien wrote:
lefze wrote: Anyways, EE build is subpar, does not cover anything skirmish can't and is in general subpar. And don't tell me you wouldn't include a 2 sec fester in the build.
EE Build is ok now. It was perfect when support with UF.
Constant pressure targets with lots of damage works well. Lacks the burst as before, but too late to cry about UF
3s FA too long cast for this build. Have not place for FA tactic in EE build, or need decrise AP cost for EE. But 2s FA will be OP.
I guess we all have different opinions on what "okay" means, but whatever. Anyways, 3 second cast of FA is too long of a cast time for any build, so there you have the problem with it. 2 second cast isn't suddenly gonna make it OP, merely useable.

Your choice not going for it if a buff would happen. And this would barely affect ea build, do you actually run the guerilla training in it? I would imagine either of the core ap tactics to outperform it anyways.
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lastalien
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#146 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:28 am

lefze wrote: I guess we all have different opinions on what "okay" means, but whatever. Anyways, 3 second cast of FA is too long of a cast time for any build, so there you have the problem with it. 2 second cast isn't suddenly gonna make it OP, merely useable.

Your choice not going for it if a buff would happen. And this would barely affect ea build, do you actually run the guerilla training in it? I would imagine either of the core ap tactics to outperform it anyways.

A normal buff to scouts would be to combine builds. That is, to leave the possibility to spam EE ( - AP cost ), while receiving the possibility of using FA to punching. While leaving FA cast 3 sec.

If you make tactics No quater - w/o increase cost EE, this will solve the issue with AP and we can replace GT. If you go that route, I would have agreed to a change in GT by making it for example increase the radius of the scout skills to 150f with increased critical damage FTW.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#147 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:18 am

lastalien wrote:
lefze wrote: I guess we all have different opinions on what "okay" means, but whatever. Anyways, 3 second cast of FA is too long of a cast time for any build, so there you have the problem with it. 2 second cast isn't suddenly gonna make it OP, merely useable.

Your choice not going for it if a buff would happen. And this would barely affect ea build, do you actually run the guerilla training in it? I would imagine either of the core ap tactics to outperform it anyways.

A normal buff to scouts would be to combine builds. That is, to leave the possibility to spam EE ( - AP cost ), while receiving the possibility of using FA to punching. While leaving FA cast 3 sec.

If you make tactics No quater - w/o increase cost EE, this will solve the issue with AP and we can replace GT. If you go that route, I would have agreed to a change in GT by making it for example increase the radius of the scout skills to 150f with increased critical damage FTW.
The possibility to spam eagle eye would still remain, I see no reason to slot it. From what you are saying you don't run http://www.ror.builders/career/shadow-w ... ,3989,3952
with optional 4th tactic, one choice being either of the two core ap tactics. I don't see speccing guerilla training being even close to viable compared to this, so why you are saying it's viable I don't know. Of course, dropping glass arrow to spec guerilla training is possible, but I view it as a pretty decent skill and mandatory to keep an edge over sorcs etc. and I still question the viability of the tactic over the core ones.

Range buff has already been discussed, and while it's gonna work, it might become too obnoxious, and 50% crit damage on top of a range buff is too much. Especially when you still have the ability to do this http://www.ror.builders/career/shadow-w ... ,3952,3975 Extra range would pretty much eliminate the need for glass arrow, and arguably you don't even need to spec for the skirmish stuff making the range buff enable you to spec everything in scout.

While this is what you want, the ranges it would be cast from are problematic. So it pretty much boils down to either shortening cast time of fester enabling it at the current range, or increasing range substantially enabling the current eagle eye build to safely cast festers and spam ee to their hearts content or run a spec letting you spam eagle eye from immense ranges and still keeping a healdebuff+PD for kiting whenever anyone gets into 98ft range. My opinion is that the optimal scout build should lock you out from speccing PD, and keeping fester as it is will most likely make people just not spec it letting them take healdebuff+PD from skirmish, making the build perform like it does now only from a way higher range. And again, 50% crit damage on ftw would be over the top for any of the options here with a range buff aswell.
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lastalien
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#148 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:37 am

It is a practical, not a theoretical observation. The problem with AP was determined only recently with the reduction of the fine for EE. Therefore GT is always required for the EE spec. 4 tactics is very limit the room for maneuver :) For the EE spec, and most specs in the mandatory tactics Bullseye. Remains 3 free tactics. 1 - compulsory IA (for stat), 2nd - NQ (1s EE), 3rd - RS or GT (for AP)

But with RS you will loss AP too fast, GT give you more EE shots.
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#149 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:54 am

lastalien wrote:It is a practical, not a theoretical observation. The problem with AP was determined only recently with the reduction of the fine for EE. Therefore GT is always required for the EE spec. 4 tactics is very limit the room for maneuver :) For the EE spec, and most specs in the mandatory tactics Bullseye. Remains 3 free tactics. 1 - compulsory IA (for stat), 2nd - NQ (1s EE), 3rd - RS or GT (for AP)

But with RS you will loss AP too fast, GT give you more EE shots.
I appreciate that you don't just theorize. But one big question I have for you is, why do you value 20% crit over a HUGE boost to kiting and a 50% healdebuff? I just can't see any logic to why it would perform better in practice, outside of shooting at pugs from a keep wall, and is this what the spec should be balanced around? Personally I would take PD+healdebuff over 35% reduced ap cost or bullseye any time. And with the other choices available it's not even a big sacrifice.

Clever recover>Replenishing strikes most of the time. Situational, but the dodge these days is pretty crazy. Anyways, with either of the three tactics, proper supports with various ap tactics, auras, runes or whatever+pots the difference between the choices is limited. In addition Hunter's fervor accounts for something. But again, if the balance of the spec is purely based on shooting pugs as a solo or duo I can see the tactic having SOME use, but I don't believe this should be the case.

What I forgot to mention in the last post though, is that I also think that NQ should be worked on with ap costs in mind. If anything, it should reduce the cost of eagle eye by a reasonable amount. Either this or the base cost of eagle eye should be lowered by whatever amount NQ increases it by, 40 ap per cast is plenty. Now I don't remember the exact changes to the tactic off the top of my head, but the ap cost is pretty significant without group support.
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Re: [SW] Scout Tactics

Post#150 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:05 am

lefze wrote:
I appreciate that you don't just theorize. But one big question I have for you is, why do you value 20% crit over a HUGE boost to kiting and a 50% healdebuff? I just can't see any logic to why it would perform better in practice, outside of shooting at pugs from a keep wall, and is this what the spec should be balanced around? Personally I would take PD+healdebuff over 35% reduced ap cost or bullseye any time. And with the other choices available it's not even a big sacrifice.

Clever recover>Replenishing strikes most of the time. Situational, but the dodge these days is pretty crazy. Anyways, with either of the three tactics, proper supports with various ap tactics, auras, runes or whatever+pots the difference between the choices is limited. In addition Hunter's fervor accounts for something. But again, if the balance of the spec is purely based on shooting pugs as a solo or duo I can see the tactic having SOME use, but I don't believe this should be the case.

What I forgot to mention in the last post though, is that I also think that NQ should be worked on with ap costs in mind. If anything, it should reduce the cost of eagle eye by a reasonable amount. Either this or the base cost of eagle eye should be lowered by whatever amount NQ increases it by, 40 ap per cast is plenty. Now I don't remember the exact changes to the tactic off the top of my head, but the ap cost is pretty significant without group support.
72f heal debuff is enough most time (SC, RVR) with scout 10% distance buff
http://www.ror.builders/career/shadow-w ... ,3952,3951

20% crit more then PD for scout EE spec :)

CR > RS when use lilith, for direct skill - RS better. But GT better then both.
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