[Review] Guard at Level 5

[Tesq]

move guard down, should not be see as a balance change at all, it enter in the field of the training and propedeutic changes which tank's war population always had need of. Moreover This is exatly what is designed fir t1 right now.

Tanks in war seems to always had problem use guard because the skill is quite requiring:
1-follow
2-your active use
3- the dps you are guarding actually doing something satisfactory.

the fact that is usually end in lv 10 so originally at the end of bracket , wrongly as most usefull stuff use/used to do (like group heals), create power creep with tweenks in various way per se plus a bad understanding of the class/game meccanic.

The situation of the tier 1 (and post t1) is also completly different from live right know , the main point of guard being a aim to reach or a problem due lack of CC is without foundation. The max rank is 15 atm in t1 not 11, thus lowbe need to face cc and such, originally not planned to be in t1 (if we can call t1 stuff "planned" as it feel like a blob of rng class base stuff...)(tbh cc there are from lv 9, cuz tanks snares are form of crow controll)
Rank 10 can be reach in 1-2 days of play, it is not something you strife for, is a straight forward natural conseguence of something and play in t1 with out it for 9 level negative impact your own understanding of the game; most of historical problem of the game could had been solved if tank got guard from lv 1-5 which is where most of tanks get their very basic stuff.

If you play for 9 level with out know that you can protect others simply by staying near them (even out of los) and dps from their side dont learn to demand it then the results is ppl totally unclue of what going on later on in t2-t4 bracket.

This hold even more true now that there is an unifiend bracket after t1.

SO,

pro:

-rank 11 not being the max lv avaible anymore + presence of CC past rank 9 till 15
-propedeutic need of guard at lower level both for tanks and dps (enforcing the guard meccanic idea and all other things connected to play in a view of priority )
-easy access to stuff you need to traing and get good with since t1 is considered a training ground where make practise is considered more important than overall balance-

contr:

-the real contr to this and always voiced per years is that too low level tank can't substain guard dmg due too low avoidance

tough this was never tested out and should not be the case because aoe in t1 is liniment and anyway since any skill have a target cap if you hit 1 ppl you wont hit another one, so guard will behave the same way it does in all other tiers--->dmg nullifiers nothing more nothing else. block/parry guard dmg is easier and is not influenced by armor in dmg recived in any tiers. Healers with guard around will still need to heal less overall because x target hit will all get less dmg overall and there will be anyway more mitigation with guard than with out it.

[Darosh]

-the real contr to this and always voiced per years is that too low level tank can't substain guard dmg due too low avoidance

tough this was never tested out and should not be the case because aoe in t1 is liniment and anyway since any skill have a target cap if you hit 1 ppl you wont hit another one, so guard will behave the same way it does in all other tiers--->dmg nullifiers nothing more nothing else. block/parry guard dmg is easier and is not influenced by armor in dmg recived in any tiers. Healers with guard around will still need to heal less overall because x target hit will all get less dmg overall and there will be anyway more mitigation with guard than with out it.

While I generally agree with the proposal and acknowledge the importance of learning mechanics from the get-go, the problem you pointed out doesn't soloely revolve around avoidance ~
Its avoidance, low armor, low resistance and lack of group heals combined with viable AoE.
I vividly remember imploding to guard damage on my IB in t1 at level 10, because:
- I had essentially no avoidance.
- My guardees were essentially all buttnaked, and prone to, for example, Sorc rotations.
- Healers were struggling to heal as such, but were completly and utterly overwhelmed the very moment Sorcs/Choppas/Magi started spamming (fluff) AoE.
- Healers were additionally struggling due to the drain on resources, healing tank and guardee which both might not get timestamped anymore, but each require GCDs (and UI fumbling) to keep up.

If you were to introduce guard to T1 (Abbd.: as in at the very start of T1) you'd have to tweak tank avoidance through bolster or by adding a trait to guard that only applies in T1 and only to guarddamage, alternatively add other tools, HD and gheal.
Singling out a core mechanic just introduces new players to a world of pain ~ if you introduce guard you'll have to introduce gheal, if you introduce gheal you'll have to introduce iHDs, otherwise things fall apart rather quickly and leave a sour tase in everyone's mouths... especially with T1 being pug paradise.

Abbd.: The current level 10 access alleviate the struggles, as people will leave T1 before burnout starts, see below.

[michela89]

Spoiler:

There's 6 more levels after you get guard at 10 before tier 1 even ends. And then there's also MidTier scenarios, if u dont skip directly to T4 RvR.

If by that time tanks have not learned to use Guard, putting it at lvl 5 wouldn't change much.

Read the rules before you post here.

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=11105

5. No PUG arguments.

Balance is based around classes being played competently. Do not make any argument which involves disparity of skill, gear or specialization on either side. It is desirable when buffing classes or specs to avoid making them PUG killers, but a buff to an underpowered element of the game which renders it or the class more powerful against PUGs is not a problem as long as this element has valid counterplay.


This actually applies to a LOT of the arguments being made here. New players will learn. Balance is made around competent players.

[Luuca]

"Balance is made around competent players."

if this is the case, /endthread

Competent players will hit level 10 in a few hours of rolling as well as understand the judicious use of and importance of Guard. Giving Guard to them earlier will not improve balance nor overall playability for competent players.

[Pumatouch]

"Balance is made around competent players."

if this is the case, /endthread

Competent players will hit level 10 in a few hours... Giving Guard to them earlier will not improve balance nor overall playability for competent players.

Yes it will, exactly that. It will give you 5 more levels of competent gameplay with friends. You know, Fun.

[dansari]

Competent players will hit level 10 in a few hours

Not really. You can get to 5 in about 6ish scs, but 10 is going to be longer (from my NA perspective)

[Tesq]

Competent players will hit level 10 in a few hours

Not really. You can get to 5 in about 6ish scs, but 10 is going to be longer (from my NA perspective)

nah, is the same for eu .....

Spoiler:

back on topic, give guard earlier allow to experiment early on with it, mean when you have less stuff avaiable you will focus more on it than on other things which you will all have at lv 10+ and since you have those and since you will have a relevant gear discrepancy from the others lowbe you will most likely play more selfish and ingore the rest of the kits which anyway yes give a certain % of danger, since you dont know is value and you can do better what ppl are as tank in t1 then basically ignore guards is easy pick.....and then we gona recive tanks which refuse to guards in t4.

Again, this is more of a pug argument, and not really relevant. Competent players know the value of Guard: when to switch, when to drop it, etc. There is no evidence that competent players would not take advantage (and feel useful) if Guard was moved to lvl 5, and no evidence that their habits would change based on gaining a skill 5 levels earlier than before. However, there is ample evidence that competent players do not feel useful as a tank, in the current iteration of the game, until level 10 (2/3rds of time spent in T1) - Dan

[adamthelc]

Ive leveled a lot of tanks and cant wait to get guard, so I understand the desire to get guard earlier. But tanks arent worthless before guard, they still do damge and they can still get kills.

It seems like you would be opening pandoras box. Where so you draw the line on what good skill should you get earlier and which ones shouldnt you get earlier? It would be percieved as being arbitrary if there wasnt a good reason for it.

Ive leveled a lot of mdps too. There are times when I feel worthless without a charge or snare break. A lot of times I am constantly snared by the "worthless" pre level 10 tanks.

To me this just seems like players want to be better sooner and thats not what T1 is about, especially at that level.

The cool thing about T1 is that its different. You dont have all the skills you have later in the game and you play a little differently. I know guard is already in T1, but not all tanks have it.

[dansari]

Ive leveled a lot of tanks and cant wait to get guard, so I understand the desire to get guard earlier. But tanks arent worthless before guard, they still do damge and they can still get kills.

It seems like you would be opening pandoras box. Where so you draw the line on what good skill should you get earlier and which ones shouldnt you get earlier? It would be percieved as being arbitrary if there wasnt a good reason for it.

Ive leveled a lot of mdps too. There are times when I feel worthless without a charge or snare break. A lot of times I am constantly snared by the "worthless" pre level 10 tanks.

To me this just seems like players want to be better sooner and thats not what T1 is about, especially at that level.

The cool thing about T1 is that its different. You dont have all the skills you have later in the game and you play a little differently. I know guard is already in T1, but not all tanks have it.

The main variable, in my mind, is what differentiates a tank at its core. Tanks are pretty much softer hitting mdps until they get Guard. Stealthers are pretty much squishier mdps until they get stealth. The "line" is drawn by the staff/dev team who ultimately make decisions and changes.

[Darosh]

Again, this is more of a pug argument, and not really relevant. Competent players know the value of Guard: when to switch, when to drop it, etc. There is no evidence that competent players would not take advantage (and feel useful) if Guard was moved to lvl 5, and no evidence that their habits would change based on gaining a skill 5 levels earlier than before. However, there is ample evidence that competent players do not feel useful as a tank, in the current iteration of the game, until level 10 (2/3rds of time spent in T1) - Dan

Does that mean that new players - those in the limbo between pug and competent player - are being disregarded? First impression heavily impacts player retention, doesn't it?

As by your elaboration: 6ish SCs to level 5, this means that (new) players will get guard - should this proposal get through - within their first play session.

Judging by your argumentation you are focusing on <old players> strolling along on their alts or those that are disgruntled by the lack of competent tanks in later tiers.
Guard at level 10 is painful for old players, because they know about Guard before they start playing a tank/or pick up the game again, to begin with.

Guard at level 10 is a blessing for new players - again, regardless of competence - because they don't implode immediately... they have a grace period due to what little gear they could acquire during their first 10 levels, a basic grasp of the mechanics (much more: limitations of their class/realm) and a set/tidied up UI.

Negative feedback loop (through a clusterfuck of mechanics and lack thereof, aswell as - naturally - public chats [overly demanding Vets mining salt]), yadayada... there is a metalevel to this.
I am furiously spamming my anti-pug schtick in all the threads I touch, but this time around it isn't applicable, imho ~