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[Review] [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer

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OldSerpenT
Game Artist
Posts: 103

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#11 » Wed May 16, 2018 2:00 pm

I'm saying that the conception of WP/DoK is about choice - heal or deal damage. With what WP and DoK has at this moment they are more than in capacity to do both. And the way they do it is balanced.
Adding tactics that will negate "Divine Fury" will cause disbalance as it will allow to boost healing along with damage output. Also some WPs/DoKs disregard "Divine Fury" and this allows to have quite interesting results.
Spoiler:
I don't have screenshots of WP doing that, as it's not something I was interested in. Though I've seen similar results.
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Yes, it's not some 40/40 DoK. And it's not some 40/40 zealot.
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Rydiak
Posts: 770

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#12 » Wed May 16, 2018 2:06 pm

So if I am understanding you correctly, Grace is pointless to use in RvR so no sense in buffing it. Also, Grace is balanced at the moment and any buff to it would make it overpowered. Bold move, Cotton.

Linking a picture of a DoK doing well in a scenario, in a balance thread about a Warrior Priest tactic...I'm not sure you quite understand the role of the balance forums. I will not be replying to you further.
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OldSerpenT
Game Artist
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#13 » Wed May 16, 2018 2:15 pm

You are not understanding me correctly.
1. Thoroughly read part about negating Divine Fury.
2. Thoroughly read next sentence about disregarding Divine Fury.
3. After digesting this information, take a look at screenshots.
4. Combine acquired information.
It has nothing to do with DoKs in particular. It has nothing to do with Grace tree in particular. It is all about disbalancing class by adding something that negates effect of Divine Fury which allows to boost both damage and heal output.

I see it's cool on this forums to read just a part of a post and respond on it.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#14 » Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm

Now can you show those kind of screenshots along side the tactics that were in use as well as a combat log parser that breaks down that amount of healing and what ability caused it.

%healing increases do not effect lifetap style heals. I'm willing to bet that most of Hayzz's healing in that scenario came from transfer essence (lifetap), devour essence (life tap), rend soul (life tap), and maybe soul infusion (HoT, mostly on himself). AND the reason the healing got that high is because of those two engineers spamming AoE DoTs. So your transfer essence were constantly healing pretty much everyone in your group. And this tactic would not increase that type of healing.

As for the anyone that disregard divine fury, fairly certain I made a long post describing that benefit.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#15 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm

OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 2:15 pm It has nothing to do with DoKs in particular. It has nothing to do with Grace tree in particular. It is all about disbalancing class by adding something that negates effect of Divine Fury which allows to boost both damage and heal output.
It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.

Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#16 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:07 pm

Imo, Leading the Prayer and what melee healers needs is boosted defence capabillity so they don't require guard. This is extremly tricky to do as it can be exploited both for dps and casted healing builds.

Made a sugestion a while back (that I removed) that Leading the Prayer could be a stackeble buff that would trigger a stack every time you damage someone with a Grace attack and last for 2 seconds. Each stack would generate 2,5% less incomming damage to self and would stack up to 10 times. Cooldown would refresh every time a new stack was built.

Tactic wording:
Spoiler:
Every time you deal damage with a Path of Grace abillity you take 2,5% less damage for 2 seconds. This effect stacks up to 10 times.
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Snoxx
Posts: 88

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#17 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:23 pm

I agree with the OP about "Leading the Prayer" tactic. In it's current state, it's not worth using because it's only helpful when your team is already winning (e.g. pushing forward, where you'd get lots of heals but are at full health anyways) but is useless when your team is about to lose (e.g. retreating, where you desperately need heals but get none). Thus I'd apreciate the attempt to fix it's problems.

Unfortunately, the given proposal doesn't fix any of the problems of the tactic itself. Instead, it just adds some random bonus, while leaving the underlying misconceptions of "Leading the Prayer" as they are.

Sorry, but this is not the way how melee Warrior Priests should be fixed.

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Rydiak
Posts: 770

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#18 » Wed May 16, 2018 5:00 pm

Snoxx wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 4:23 pm I agree with the OP about "Leading the Prayer" tactic. In it's current state, it's not worth using because it's only helpful when your team is already winning (e.g. pushing forward, where you'd get lots of heals but are at full health anyways) but is useless when your team is about to lose (e.g. retreating, where you desperately need heals but get none). Thus I'd apreciate the attempt to fix it's problems.

Unfortunately, the given proposal doesn't fix any of the problems of the tactic itself. Instead, it just adds some random bonus, while leaving the underlying misconceptions of "Leading the Prayer" as they are.

Sorry, but this is not the way how melee Warrior Priests should be fixed.
I play a LOT of Grace, and incoming chip damage that cannot be life-tapped away (because current combat is too dangerous to engage in) is the bane of the spec. That chip damage builds and builds and you end up in a situation where now you (or your group) cannot even enter melee combat at all because you don't have the hitpoints for it. Now you need to rely on other healers from your group or warband to cover your role until you can be of any use. Alleviating that issue is one of the purposes of the proposal, and Leading the Prayer seemed like the perfect home for anything that helped that situation because the tactic deals with keeping the Warrior Priest alive.

Since Grace cannot effectively counter chip damage outside of melee combat, because they sacrifice so much in their casted heals to survive/be effective in melee, the obvious buff would be to make casted heals not as poor but at the cost of a Greatweapon, a mastery point, and a tactic slot.

The proposal won't make Grace-specced casted heals on the same level as Salvation-specced casted heals, nor should it. It should only provide another avenue for Grace to choose to accomplish the goal of keeping players alive as a healer. Countering the heal effectiveness debuff of Divine Fury/Fanaticism simply does that.
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OldSerpenT
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#19 » Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm

Ramasee wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm Now can you show those kind of screenshots along side the tactics that were in use as well as a combat log parser that breaks down that amount of healing and what ability caused it.

%healing increases do not effect lifetap style heals. I'm willing to bet that most of Hayzz's healing in that scenario came from transfer essence (lifetap), devour essence (life tap), rend soul (life tap), and maybe soul infusion (HoT, mostly on himself). AND the reason the healing got that high is because of those two engineers spamming AoE DoTs. So your transfer essence were constantly healing pretty much everyone in your group. And this tactic would not increase that type of healing.

As for the anyone that disregard divine fury, fairly certain I made a long post describing that benefit.
No I can't provide screenshots and combat log parse. I believe you realize the absurdity of that request.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but the proposal is about boosting cast-heals that actually are affected by DF

dansari wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.

Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?

Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.

Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.

The whole big problem of all these discussions is that people want to "fix" something that doesn't please them by drastic change or complete remodeling ability or tactic. It's not balancing. You can't tune guitar with power tools or by putting strings in different order and randomly changing gauge. You slowly tighten or loosen strings. Same thing here.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#20 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:47 pm

Spoiler:
OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
dansari wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.

Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?

Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.

Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.
You're right. I didn't explain it well, and honestly wouldn't do justice to the topic by attempting to explain why dps dok > dps WP, but if you play the game at all you see the rampant amount of dps doks in pug scs (talking upwards of 4 or 5 in some instances) and sometimes a dps WP who gets stomped. So again, dps WP <> dps dok, and this proposal isn't even about dps WP; it's about melee healing WP.

The OP is not full offense. He takes Discpline & Exalted Defenses tactics and Divine Light/Pious Restoration to boost his casted healing abilities and does not take Intimidating Repent. If you read the OP you would see that he has no points to put into Wrath (Wrath is the dps tree). The OP is also tying the tactic to 2h (book WP would not pick this up).

So, finally, I'm growing tired of your irrelevant tangents into how effective dps doks are (the mirrors are not equal; no mirrors are) and how they have the potential to out heal some high RR zealot in one pug scenario. It's a vast discrepancy from page one of this proposal, which features data to support the OP. Please keep posts from here on out relevant to the discussion.
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