[Shaman/AM] Stacks Converter/Wiper

[dansari]

Would it be better to tie this to 15pt Da Green/Vaul if it would specifically benefit lifetap healers the most? Understood that the mechanic is not in a good place, but wanted to have a discussion nonetheless.

[catholicism198]

Wasnt this already discussed? Iirc- aza- the super dev- said they could only do something like this in the distant future with client control.
.ab ex wasn't broken. The instant cast visual bug wasn't present at the time. It wasn't until it was removed that you didn't see the cast bar...and you can still play it as a hybrid if you truly wish to gimp yourself...all the mechanic really did a decade ago was reduce the 2 second cast time of abilities, several of which are now instant cast. They billed it as a heal through dps magic class but they failed to deliver.

[Miszczu5647]

Another problem is that IMO we don't have coherent definition what "hybrid shaman" means. Imagine you have 100 point. If one invest 100 into heal tree he will be great healer and shitty dps. And vice versa. If one invest 50 points in heal and 50 points in dps then he will be decent healer and decent dps. Real hybrid. Only for solo play as he won't find place in any group.

15 points skill in Path of da Green.This is how 70rr healing build could looks like more or less:
http://www.ror.builders/career/shaman/s ... 31&mt=&t=
You miss DSU, best tool in shaman healing arsenal. And example for dps:
http://www.ror.builders/career/shaman/s ... mt=5318&t=
You miss Hurts, Don't It? and Da Waaagh! Is Coming - your only aoe dmg spell.

Coz of above life taps should be equally good (not with equall numbers ofc) in terms of good dps and abilty to heal you and your party. They are not. First and foremost coz of disrupt (no matter current or previous implementation).

But... maybe if we change definition of "hybrid shaman"? What if Waaagh points give you benefits to the point when on max you can spend it with effectiveness of opposed build - when healer can use dmg spell as dps, and dps as healer? This ofc reset whole mechanic so if one want to use it again on max efficency he will need to cast 5 heal/dps.

[Darosh]

Likely entirely irrelevant, but my definition of a 'hybrid' class would see every single skill (besides the core things like detaunt etc) changed into actual 'hybrid' skills.
DPS mechanic stacks enable the dps traits of the skills, heal mechanic stacks enable healing traits of the skills (e.g.: 'gheal' would either turn into an AoE, or remain a heal depending on mechanic stacks).

But that most certainly would break the game, and given WAR's overall mechanics the classes.

[Tesq]

Another problem is that IMO we don't have coherent definition what "hybrid shaman" means. Imagine you have 100 point. If one invest 100 into heal tree he will be great healer and shitty dps. And vice versa. If one invest 50 points in heal and 50 points in dps then he will be decent healer and decent dps. Real hybrid. Only for solo play as he won't find place in any group.

15 points skill in Path of da Green.This is how 70rr healing build could looks like more or less:
http://www.ror.builders/career/shaman/s ... 31&mt=&t=
You miss DSU, best tool in shaman healing arsenal. And example for dps:
http://www.ror.builders/career/shaman/s ... mt=5318&t=
You miss Hurts, Don't It? and Da Waaagh! Is Coming - your only aoe dmg spell.

Coz of above life taps should be equally good (not with equall numbers ofc) in terms of good dps and abilty to heal you and your party. They are not. First and foremost coz of disrupt (no matter current or previous implementation).

But... maybe if we change definition of "hybrid shaman"? What if Waaagh points give you benefits to the point when on max you can spend it with effectiveness of opposed build - when healer can use dmg spell as dps, and dps as healer? This ofc reset whole mechanic so if one want to use it again on max efficency he will need to cast 5 heal/dps.

class being able to do both is being hybrid

you can play it:

full healer
full dps
hybrid with lifetap mastery

atm the meccanic of the class dont allow any hybrid play and the class is build around having a hybrid meccanic, if you want swap between the style you need fast build and consuming meccanic; old version had fast consume but not fast build and lacked ap management to deal with skill spam to build meccanic, finally here on ror you have disrupt problem which is amplied even mote on hybrid class/meccanic.

since you can build consistently 2 out of 3 mastery in war am/sh are alway hybrid becase they always take 1 mastery with diff comp between heal/dps + lifetap one-

is either heal+ heal/dps or dps + heal/dps

the class need to both heal and cast offensive stuff at enemy which have to hit regardless the spec consistently

the prob is meccanic and i wrote about it in page 1, the balance counter of the meccanic are ap consume/regen and class meccanic should be super spammy balanced with ap consume a thing which live and first ror itieration missed-

[Miszczu5647]

Fully agreed @Tesq. But we try here to squizz OP as much as we can. Other problems for other thread.

[Aurandilaz]

I don't see the need to add what OP suggests, main reason being that with current state of AM/sham mechanic and whole class, it would be like building something on a swamp.
Sure it might help the class tiny bit, but the main problem remains that the mechanic just doesn't work at all and would need a total redesign to make the class into a functional hybrid that does both dmg and heals to perform efficiently.
Like why add extra layers to a broken mechanic - rather save the energy now, wait for client control, then rework AM/shaman and then possibly consider "plan switch" to the class.

Dreams of how the mechanic could work in distant/2week future timeline:
each mechanic point adds 60 INT and Willpower
each mechanic points adds 4-5% crit
So at say after 5 HoTs, both your WP and Int would be 300 higher than at start and you'd have 20-25crit that affects both healcrit and magic crit. Then if you start lowering the mechanic point stack, you might get a powerful dps heal, but that also means less crit for next cast.
Ideally you would want to maintain high stack, but also get best benefits out of it instead of just sitting there, whilst remaining flexible and not forced to dps to get best heals or forced to heal to get best dps - but so that a true hybrid that could perform decently at both tasks could exist. While not being OP, which would require lot of tweaking to lifetap healing.
And you would probably need to add decent strikethrough values so that DoTs actually become viable for dmging, say 4-8% strikethrough per point, varying from max 20 to max 40 (though AM can already get +10 racial and +15 midtree, but shaman really needs some help on that front)


Obviously what OP suggests would help the class, but still I'd rather see a proper rework of the mechanic than bandaid on something that has been an issue ever since live; hybrids being problematic due to lacklustre career mechanic.

[catholicism198]

Would it be better to tie this to 15pt Da Green/Vaul if it would specifically benefit lifetap healers the most? Understood that the mechanic is not in a good place, but wanted to have a discussion nonetheless.

No, this would actually benefit pure healers the most as they are currently the ones that make the least use out of the class mechanic.
Dps can at least pop a heal here and there to build up their mechanic- DoT/lifetaps would be a waste of a gcd for healers because of the high disrupt chance

[live4treasure]

To be entirely fair life taps, when specced into properly don't do that much less damage than regular damage abilities. A critical life tap is maybe 100-200 apart from a critical radiant lance on a low defense target, but it's still significant damage, especially considering the tactic that decreases cast time could allow you, with ap steal up to basically be a life tap machine gun.

The main issue of life taps isn't the amount they heal or damage. Those are fine, from my experience. It's the fact that you're in a much more compromising position than a regular healer and, more importantly, because they are unreliable. Not just in terms of disrupt, but in the fact that while one target could have low toughness and resistances and you could heal for like 1500 on a critical life tap, another could have those and be guarded on top of it, dropping you down to like 400 or 600 healing if you manage to crit.

tldr, the numbers are fine, the issue with life taps is unreliability, and simply making them have more disrupt strikethrough won't fix it. If you really want to fix life taps, you'd have to lower the damage they do, increase the healing they do and either give them a base heal amount that scales with willpower or something, or make that damage ignore resistances. So you would do meh damage, maximum 400-600 with crits to virtually any target barring massive toughness, guards and detaunt, but it would heal for 1500+. That would make life tapping a bit better in terms of viability as a healer.

But that's a completely different topic. I say do what can be done now, apply the band aid, and when client control rolls out, then start the class rework discussion. Also, Aura isn't saying accurate things. Dots with the strikethrough tactics work just fine. It's even possible to put some pressure on healers, although it's obviously not full efficiency. The changes that add all that extra stuff would be unbalanced. If healers are struggling with mechanic, then help them utilize it better. These far fetched huge stat bonuses seem like overcompensation to me.

Aka, I'm all for adding this ability to the game. It'll make AM more interesting to play and a bit more effective at what they do. But I'd be for making it a core ability and not part of a specific tree. It's useful for literally any type of AM or Shaman and locking it to a specifc tree seems kind of needlessly restricting.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

To be entirely fair life taps, when specced into properly don't do that much less damage than regular damage abilities. A critical life tap is maybe 100-200 apart from a critical radiant lance on a low defense target, but it's still significant damage, especially considering the tactic that decreases cast time could allow you, with ap steal up to basically be a life tap machine gun.

The main issue of life taps isn't the amount they heal or damage. Those are fine, from my experience. It's the fact that you're in a much more compromising position than a regular healer and, more importantly, because they are unreliable. Not just in terms of disrupt, but in the fact that while one target could have low toughness and resistances and you could heal for like 1500 on a critical life tap, another could have those and be guarded on top of it, dropping you down to like 400 or 600 healing if you manage to crit.

tldr, the numbers are fine, the issue with life taps is unreliability, and simply making them have more disrupt strikethrough won't fix it. If you really want to fix life taps, you'd have to lower the damage they do, increase the healing they do and either give them a base heal amount that scales with willpower or something, or make that damage ignore resistances. So you would do meh damage, maximum 400-600 with crits to virtually any target barring massive toughness, guards and detaunt, but it would heal for 1500+. That would make life tapping a bit better in terms of viability as a healer.

But that's a completely different topic. I say do what can be done now, apply the band aid, and when client control rolls out, then start the class rework discussion. Also, Aura isn't saying accurate things. Dots with the strikethrough tactics work just fine. It's even possible to put some pressure on healers, although it's obviously not full efficiency. The changes that add all that extra stuff would be unbalanced. If healers are struggling with mechanic, then help them utilize it better. These far fetched huge stat bonuses seem like overcompensation to me.

Aka, I'm all for adding this ability to the game. It'll make AM more interesting to play and a bit more effective at what they do. But I'd be for making it a core ability and not part of a specific tree. It's useful for literally any type of AM or Shaman and locking it to a specifc tree seems kind of needlessly restricting.

this is a different entirely problem, healing done calulated on dmg done is a bad choice design because you increase both with off stats so it either turn too op or too bad.

But this have nothing to do with am/sh because it's a problem of dok/wp aswell (general lifetap prolems) , it wont be fix with meccanic neither with the op proposal; meccanic can instead with a right disrutp striketrough make application happen more often which is a problem which can be solved that way instead.

Spoiler:

healing and dmg component need to be separated and stack 1 with primary off stat and the other with willpower, healing part will scale as any heal dot divided half or 75% value per compensation , the dmg component will scale as a off dot divided half or 75% per compensation . This way hybrid heals will stop to suck or being op based on implementation. But this have nothing to do with am/sh because it's a problem of dok/wp aswell as said.