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[SM] Phantom's Blade

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#31 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:26 pm

You can swap to stat steal blade enchant when your not being focused as a bubble spec SM. This mitigate's the lack of aura's.

The aura argument is weak.

You can swap back to phantom's blade when you are being focused. The blade enchant's/bellow's are not static buff's not to be swapped depending on situation.

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Methryel
Posts: 27

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#32 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:46 pm

footpatrol2 wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 9:26 pm You can swap to stat steal blade enchant when your not being focused as a bubble spec SM. This mitigate's the lack of aura's.

The aura argument is weak.

You can swap back to phantom's blade when you are being focused. The blade enchant's/bellow's are not static buff's not to be swapped depending on situation.
Can you say what are your propositions? Not even sure you're playing à SM. You're not very helpfull mate.
SM :Methryel

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Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#33 » Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 pm

Its a lot of extra damage mitigation for a group, giving both your guarded target (the person getting focus) random bubbles every few seconds, as well as yourself the bubble which in turn help you mitigate guard damage.

I know the skill might be lack lustre for group play but this is likely to be a massive over buff to what is already a very meta tank due to its raw damage which is in turn bad for game balance.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#34 » Tue May 15, 2018 12:31 am

Tesq wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 8:45 pm [removed quote to myself to shorten, look back his reference to me]

rdps crit multipelr is 100% base (while melee is 50%)+ 150% from bw/sorc meccanic is 250% which you add 100% which is base dmg = 350% because you cant multiply by 1 so is 650 x 3.5 not 2.5 as i said. this is wrong, just wrong.

proof:

base dmg =650
+100% =650+650=1300
+100%+150%=650+650+975+=2275

a base skill dmg of 650 can crit for 2275 this is the correct vaue; aka 650 absorb+tough can negate over 2k of dmg



this is wrong aswell, toughness work on int not post total skill dmg skill with higer cast time get mosr econtribution from the primary stat so tough could negate more value depending on skill rather than always a fix value; again wrong this would work even better by stack with bubbles.[/color]

[removed his reply to a different person]
You are right, I missed the rdps 100% base crit damage over melee's 50%. However that still puts critical damage at 3x for sorc/bw because their mechanic is only +100% critical damage, not 150%. I updated my spreadsheet to have crit damage % ranging from 50, to 250 (just in case I did miss a class that can get +250% critical damage).

As for toughness, I know exactly how it works. Notice that I did NOT take toughness off of the total skill damage. I took toughness off of the tooltip value. In game tooltips are base damage + (str/int/bal + power) * mod. I used a 1s cast time ability as you did in your first bout of math. (You stated 500 toughness reduces damage by 100, which is true for most 1s cast time abilities). My spreadsheet also accounts for cast time of the abilities.

Toughness always mitigates the damage by the same amount for the same ability, regardless of whether the target has an active absorb or not. Toughness DOES NOT effect the amount of damage an absorb will protect against. It DOES however make the absorb last longer because it mitigates damage before the absorb comes into play.

Btw for a 3x critical hit damage (and all the variables I added earlier), a 466 absorb mitigates 838.8 damage which is 180% tooltip value.
Ramasee wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 6:23 pm

The more critical damage your opponent has the more valuable an absorb is [(if they would have crit).
Tesq wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 8:45 pm """"""""""""""""""(if they would have crit).""""""""""""""

do we play the same game=?????

this ia a game based on crit and multiplers in generals......
I am sorry that is written poorly for others to understand. I will rephrase it.

The more critical damage your opponent has, the more valuable an absorb is. (That is on abilities that would have critically hit you).

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#35 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:01 am

Methryel wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 8:23 pm Well, it looks like you want to demonstrate that bubbles are strong for groups.If it's THAT strong why don't we see bunch of SM using WW to spam PoH(815 abso or something closed)?
You've shown that it can be strong against ONE hit . And you're right.
But this is a team's game, when you hit a target :
1)you're most of the time not alone
and 2) you hit many times. That's why PoH didn't disrupt the game and why bubbles are useless in Vaul's tree.
It's good for very little fights or duels but not for SC or WB.
The bubbles will still absorb less than the dmg avoided wit the buffs (from IB or Knight for example)

The goal of this thread is to improve Vaul's tree which almost dead.
How many Vaul's SM are playing? Not many.
Improve PB is a good Idea, if you think that Share thé bubbles with thé entire party IS too much , do it for the SM and the player you're guarding .
If you keep the PB bubbles so low , nbdy will play it...
I am trying to demonstrate that the absorb is at a fair potency at this moment that making it a group buff will not make it overpowered. My math was to prove that the absorb definitely doesn't need to be nerfed. Now that I have it spreadsheet form, other people can edit values and see for themselves, beyond the numbers I have argued.

I showed earlier that you can reliably proc the ability every 2-5s depending on how hard you are trying to do so. In the instances where you can proc it every 2s, is in large AoE fights where the absorbs evaporate. But they equate to on rough average (accounting crits, 25% crit rate for non sorcs, and 13 pt vaul) to 349.5 effective mitigation for every proc as long as the target is actively getting hit.

The buff to vaul spec is a secondary focus of the thread in reality. The main goal of the thread (and my heaven's blade proposal) is to have other blade enchantments have viable situations in which to use them. Instead of just SM's use nature's blade regardless of spec or group role. Blade Enchantments are one of the defining mechanics/points of the class and they should all have legitimate uses.
Toldavf wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 pm Its a lot of extra damage mitigation for a group, giving both your guarded target (the person getting focus) random bubbles every few seconds, as well as yourself the bubble which in turn help you mitigate guard damage.

I know the skill might be lack lustre for group play but this is likely to be a massive over buff to what is already a very meta tank due to its raw damage which is in turn bad for game balance.
It is a fair amount of mitigation for the group. But the real potency comes from constant procs, as each individual proc isn't a super bubble. And you'll be giving up a 150 - 240 stat swing enchantment. (Takes 75 - 120 from enemies in AOE, and gives it to your party)

Some people have stated that you can just stance dance. This costs 55ap and a GCD per swap to maintain a 10s rng buff on nature's blade to then swap back to phantom's blade which only lasts for 5s with my proposal.

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Toldavf
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Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#36 » Tue May 15, 2018 8:37 am

Spoiler:
Ramasee wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 1:01 am
Methryel wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 8:23 pm Well, it looks like you want to demonstrate that bubbles are strong for groups.If it's THAT strong why don't we see bunch of SM using WW to spam PoH(815 abso or something closed)?
You've shown that it can be strong against ONE hit . And you're right.
But this is a team's game, when you hit a target :
1)you're most of the time not alone
and 2) you hit many times. That's why PoH didn't disrupt the game and why bubbles are useless in Vaul's tree.
It's good for very little fights or duels but not for SC or WB.
The bubbles will still absorb less than the dmg avoided wit the buffs (from IB or Knight for example)

The goal of this thread is to improve Vaul's tree which almost dead.
How many Vaul's SM are playing? Not many.
Improve PB is a good Idea, if you think that Share thé bubbles with thé entire party IS too much , do it for the SM and the player you're guarding .
If you keep the PB bubbles so low , nbdy will play it...
I am trying to demonstrate that the absorb is at a fair potency at this moment that making it a group buff will not make it overpowered. My math was to prove that the absorb definitely doesn't need to be nerfed. Now that I have it spreadsheet form, other people can edit values and see for themselves, beyond the numbers I have argued.

I showed earlier that you can reliably proc the ability every 2-5s depending on how hard you are trying to do so. In the instances where you can proc it every 2s, is in large AoE fights where the absorbs evaporate. But they equate to on rough average (accounting crits, 25% crit rate for non sorcs, and 13 pt vaul) to 349.5 effective mitigation for every proc as long as the target is actively getting hit.

The buff to vaul spec is a secondary focus of the thread in reality. The main goal of the thread (and my heaven's blade proposal) is to have other blade enchantments have viable situations in which to use them. Instead of just SM's use nature's blade regardless of spec or group role. Blade Enchantments are one of the defining mechanics/points of the class and they should all have legitimate uses.
Toldavf wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 pm Its a lot of extra damage mitigation for a group, giving both your guarded target (the person getting focus) random bubbles every few seconds, as well as yourself the bubble which in turn help you mitigate guard damage.

I know the skill might be lack lustre for group play but this is likely to be a massive over buff to what is already a very meta tank due to its raw damage which is in turn bad for game balance.
It is a fair amount of mitigation for the group. But the real potency comes from constant procs, as each individual proc isn't a super bubble. And you'll be giving up a 150 - 240 stat swing enchantment. (Takes 75 - 120 from enemies in AOE, and gives it to your party)

Some people have stated that you can just stance dance. This costs 55ap and a GCD per swap to maintain a 10s rng buff on nature's blade to then swap back to phantom's blade which only lasts for 5s with my proposal.
In a melee train how many of those stats are relevant? Holiday DPS run a strength pot a knight provides toughness and healers already have willpower from one source or anothuer. So that basically leaves weapon skill and initiative, while it is currently meta to run an ini debuff for the massive crit increase it can provide this will probably cease to be the case in end game due to better gear. Initiative debuff will still be good just not as bonkers as they can be ATM.

In that sort of environment stat steal is allot less useful than constant bubbles for the group which will have a massive swing on its survivability. While the proc is random it doesn't take many procs to have an effect on DPS trading. Not to mention it could have some crazy synergy with WP a class that is already a bubble monster if it wants to be.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Methryel
Posts: 27

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#37 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:02 am

@ramasee
I wrote my post for Tesq :)
First , sorry for my poor english , second there isn't a point of aggressivity : we just want to improve the game for everyone : it's not a buff me thread.
I do agree with you but not for the potency because like i wrote , SM's bubbles are good vs 1 or 2 hits not more.
That's why in pratice :
-SM are not really tough even when they play with all the bubbles you can get (PG , VB , PoH). And it should if i follow your logic.
-We don't see SM playing together to spam PoH which get higher than PB. (the players are naturally going to play what is stronger)

I'm maybe wrong , it's just my point of view regarding to my experience.
Last edited by Methryel on Tue May 15, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
SM :Methryel

Harkonen
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Posts: 30

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#38 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:10 am

Healer ini buffs are cleansable/shatterable etc.
Not everyone runs meleetrain, especially in Orvr where Vaul is supposed to shine.
Not every group has a Kotbs 100% of the time.

You forget that a stat steal does not only mean you buff your party; you also take those stats away from the opponent for the full 10 sec duration. Considering defense checks are now more affected by stats than pure +block/parry/dogge/disrupt/-%chance to be crit makes it more potent.

Having the absorb work on group does not alleviate coordinated burst on priority targets in any noticable way. It sounds nice in theory but in practise that change would have 0 effect and not a single SM worth his weight would EVER pick group absorb over stat steal aside from Warband play where there is more aoe damage than ST (which is fine).

TL;DR

Making PB a group absorb makes it useful for warband scale play (+1)
Making PB a group absorb makes it not useful enough to take over NB/HB regarding smallscale play (+1)

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#39 » Fri May 18, 2018 10:33 am

I don't think blade enchantments are key skills like aura or SW stance.
you don't build skill tree or rotation around it.
although it has good synergy with their own tree, it's just bonus you pick according to situations.

PB is not much used. because most SM are dps.
they don't put themselves into situation where PB shines.
it doesn't mean it's garbage.

PB helps being super tank.
bubble build can grab 2~3 ppl and survive long enough. neutralizing number difference in orvr.
it's up to others how to use this opportunity.

survivability of tank is like hidden factor.
too many ppl can't see it.
longer guard and more challenges are additional, while healers focusing on other members.

you don't choose khaine for NB. or hoeth for HB. same with vaul.
dps SM won't change to tank spec for 25% proc of something.

it merely adds another tool for dps, or slightly buff already existing vaul SM.
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kolrhil
Posts: 18

Re: [Swordmaster] Phantom's Blade [Close Date 26th May]

Post#40 » Sun May 20, 2018 8:43 am

anarchypark wrote: Fri May 18, 2018 10:33 am I don't think blade enchantments are key skills like aura or SW stance.
you don't build skill tree or rotation around it.
although it has good synergy with their own tree, it's just bonus you pick according to situations.

PB is not much used. because most SM are dps.
they don't put themselves into situation where PB shines.
it doesn't mean it's garbage.

PB helps being super tank.
bubble build can grab 2~3 ppl and survive long enough. neutralizing number difference in orvr.
it's up to others how to use this opportunity.

survivability of tank is like hidden factor.
too many ppl can't see it.
longer guard and more challenges are additional, while healers focusing on other members.

you don't choose khaine for NB. or hoeth for HB. same with vaul.
dps SM won't change to tank spec for 25% proc of something.

it merely adds another tool for dps, or slightly buff already existing vaul SM.
1- Of course Blade enchantments are key skills when you play in SC ort WB !!! That's why people play NB
2-PB helps being super tank : Try it, you'll see that it helps a little , but won't make youa super tank (even with SnB). get an obsorb heps but it will be much weaker than avoiding a hit
3-You choose khaine, beacause it's the best tree with Hoeth. VAul's tree is not played beacause it doesn't bring enough for you or your group

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