[RP] Grimnir's Fury

[Lektroluv]

Spoiler:

So making one ability undefendable, and skipping inmunity in a faction which already has way better CC abilities and CC tactics than the enemy, is a good way for balance moderate the game?

Sorry but it is not

We're not referring to CC abilities order and destro has and going into all the nuances between the two. I've added red herring tangents to rule #4, and this is an example of one.

Furthermore, I just moderate the forums -- just because I submit my own proposal doesn't mean it gets implemented.

If you're following along at home, dear reader, the correct way to go about engaging in the balance forum might be "hey, this seems to be different than how Winds works, so I don't agree with it bypassing immunities if a player is already immune; it might be better to include counterplay in X, Y, and Z if you propose it should do this." - Dan

[Lektroluv]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

So making one ability undefendable, and skipping inmunity in a faction which already has way better CC abilities and CC tactics than the enemy, is a good way for balance moderate the game?

Sorry but it is not

We're not referring to CC abilities order and destro has and going into all the nuances between the two. I've added red herring tangents to rule #4, and this is an example of one.

Furthermore, I just moderate the forums -- just because I submit my own proposal doesn't mean it gets implemented.

If you're following along at home, dear reader, the correct way to go about engaging in the balance forum might be "hey, this seems to be different than how Winds works, so I don't agree with it bypassing immunities if a player is already immune; it might be better to include counterplay in X, Y, and Z if you propose it should do this." - Dan

Ok, then

"hey, this seems to be different than how Winds works, so I don't agree with it bypassing immunities if a player is already immune" dear writer

Man it kinda took you a long time to retort in the way I expected you to. User warned for being cheeky - Dan

[Dabbart]

Can the ability be interrupted? If you can cast during so, then No would be the answer I believe. Ofc, CC(punt/KD/Silence) on the RP would end the effect, or draining AP would do so as well. So there would be counter play possible. Possibly making interrupt break the ability if no other spell is currently being cast? No idea if that is possible however. Also, with the amount people complain about the Disrupt rates, even with a healing RP toggling their Mechanic, they wouldn't have the Int to "guarantee" Snares. Right? And if they do toggle, then their healing goes to ****(technically, WP stat doesn't scale well)

On a tank I could see this ability being ludicrously OP. On a RP, not so much. But, alongside Grimnir's Shield 50% damage decrease, and 25% AP costs, this ability starts to look a little OP. but these are on extensive CD timers. Another thing to take into account, is the overall tankiness of RPs vs Zs as well as how RPs can pump their own AP via Runes(Z still requires a melee attack I believe, whereas RPs is any ability usage). So the RPs ability to get the cast completed, and survive to get away is better than the Zs, as well as the potential to NOT run out of AP and end the cast prematurely.

But, how would it actually be used?

Spoiler:

If this new ability ignores immunities, then an Engi Pull into a RP snare would be vicious for Bomb prepp(yes, bombing breaks the snare, but if it reapplies every 1.5s it still functions well). If this new ability functions similar to WoI(it respecs immunities but doesn't create them), then that particular strategy is moot or reversed(snare people to prepp for a Pull, doubt many would ever use it this way), and the root functions more as a Charge or Flee counter.

Also, the Sacrificial RP with self-rezz(or not) that stops the Zerg from chasing down the entirety of your group will occur more often, and with 50% damage decrease, they could survive for the full cast solo.

Another use, would be to drop 1-2 tick of this ability, cancel the cast, and if anyone breaks the root, then have your Tank use their AoE root. But with such a short timer on the root, it's not horribly OP of a strategy.

Last usage I can think of, would be the reverse of "normal" DPS killing. Instead of punting the tank away, punt away the DPS/Healer then snare the Tanks/rest of the group and ST the DPS/Healer.

Outside of that, how much functionality for this do people forsee? The DPS RP needs a lot of love, and has been illustrated to me numerous times in the AM discussions, weak classes can be worthy of "op" abilities. As for the healing runie though, how often will they want to be in range to utilize this ability? How much more-broken than WoI would this be considered? As already discussed, WoI has plenty of good uses and is an amazing Troll ability at times(Get a BG/Chosen to super punt someone midair from WoI...). Do AoE roots offer the same uses? I don't believe so. And, you lose your Stagger for this, saying it has no usage in WB play ignores how incredibly powerful a 6s 100ft stagger is.

Imo, the usage for 6man kitey groups would be the most OP. But as Kitey groups already have tons of abilities, I don't forsee it being any form of game changer. If it happens to be so, then limiting the amount of Targets would fix that in a jiffy.

Grimnir's Fury is a 5s cast and 30ft range. Using it mid battle, or even immediately afterward to rezz multiple people doesn't work that well w/o FM. The lack of rezz sickness and 50% hp is nice, but really not worth the cast most of the time. It is far "safer" to use your full 100ft Rezz cast range. Or bring an AM with insta rezz and a SM with WW(instant no CD Rezz's are awesome) Quickly rezzing the WB after you get wiped is meh. It will only save you a few GcDs over simply Rezzing.

Personally, I see no reason not to give this ability a try(assuming it is code-able ofc). The exact stats might need to be tweaked, but seems like it could be a fun spec to play.

[dansari]

Those are good points. I envisioned it being undefendable but making it adhere to avoidance checks could be another good way of making sure it's not over the top.

[catholicism198]

Appealing to balance one ability based in the mirror, was not part of the balance rules i think...

But even going further, you asking for make the ability you talking about undefendable and skip inmunity, when the zealot mirror one was nerfed in this server and past from skip inmunity to respect inmunity.

Read the updated rules. I've clarified the commonly misunderstood rule you're referencing. Yes, this ability would not be a copy/paste of Winds, so it may be different in that regard, or it might not. It's all just a discussion.

Edit: I didn't censor your opinion. I censored your silly claim, just as I would do if you used that tone with anyone else in the forum.

Thing is, your arguments have been solely based on the fact that WoI bypasses immunities which goes against the rules.
...and if you're going to constantly compare it to WoI, then your proposed ability would be substantially better than WoI- which is a defensive ability with minimal impact on a battle vs an unbreakable, undefendable, and immunity bypassing root that will change the tide of battle. It's a mastery ability and not a morale 4+. No non-morale should have all that- um, what does he call it- "candy."

That said, you also have to take into consideration that tanks are the only archetypes with AE roots, which only hits 4 targets, have a 50% chance to break and the abilities themselves have a 1 minute cool down...so you'd in essence be taking away that role from tanks- and no, saying that it lasts 10 seconds doesn't change anything- ae is constantly going off in Zerg vs Zerg battles so it never lasts the full 10 seconds.

....furthermore, unbreakable roots were already discussed and nerfed accordingly because they were/are oped, but the outcry cause them to revert the change... those are morale ability though. they should be better than the rest.

[Dabbart]

That said, you also have to take into consideration that tanks are the only archetypes with AE roots, which only hits 4 targets, have a 50% chance to break and the abilities themselves have a 1 minute cool down...so you'd in essence be taking away that role from tanks- and no, saying that it lasts 10 seconds doesn't change anything- ae is constantly going off in Zerg vs Zerg battles so it never lasts the full 10 seconds.

....furthermore, unbreakable roots were already discussed and nerfed accordingly because they were/are oped, but the outcry cause them to revert the change... those are morale ability though. they should be better than the rest.

BW/Sorc have an AoE Root. I only have a lowbie BW/Sorc so I dunno what the max is, but the ability says "all enemies".

Is there a system or manner in which this ability would be "balanced" in your opinion? Removing the Ignore Immunities means that it'd almost never see use. Between pulls, AoE punts, tanks(and BW) using AoE roots, etc. Ofc, this arguement is used for a lot of abilities. Doesn't change the fact it happens though.

I agree with the unbreakable part though.

[footpatrol2]

So... I disagree with the proposal.

For one it completely overhaul's the entire ability when this ability is extremely powerful and unique. This ability is an AMAZING concept ability. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get some love or massaged a little. But the proposal is completely throwing the concept away.

Grimnir's Fury is the only ability in the game that is meant to recover from a wipe situation... aka morale bomb. This is on a class that can self rez... Can it be any more obvious... Other game effects that do this are done with morale 4's alter fate which doesn't get seen in this game... for reason's. The ability is on the same power level as a morale 4... on a server that doesn't let you see morale 4's... You build around the use of this ability in a warband setting.

If you can't be bothered to build around the use of this ability that is the warband creator/coordinater/organizer's fault to not make use of an amazing tool. If player's don't see the value here then I question wtf you actually know about this game and how far you have gone with it.

Here's some other, in my opinion, better options if you were to change grimnir's fury. Pick one, or a combination.
Decreasing the cast time.
Decreasing the cooldown.
Increase the affect range.
Make it work outside of group to a max of 9 player's.
Make caster invulnerable to damage while casting grimnir's fury but can be interrupted. Cooldown starts at cast start and not on completion of cast so you don't just juke and get on demand invulnerability, indefinitely.

I am shocked that you guys would want to take this concept ability away from order's toolkit, especially given how powerful it is.
This is a morale bomb recovery ability.

[catholicism198]

That said, you also have to take into consideration that tanks are the only archetypes with AE roots, which only hits 4 targets, have a 50% chance to break and the abilities themselves have a 1 minute cool down...so you'd in essence be taking away that role from tanks- and no, saying that it lasts 10 seconds doesn't change anything- ae is constantly going off in Zerg vs Zerg battles so it never lasts the full 10 seconds.

....furthermore, unbreakable roots were already discussed and nerfed accordingly because they were/are oped, but the outcry cause them to revert the change... those are morale ability though. they should be better than the rest.

BW/Sorc have an AoE Root. I only have a lowbie BW/Sorc so I dunno what the max is, but the ability says "all enemies".

Is there a system or manner in which this ability would be "balanced" in your opinion? Removing the Ignore Immunities means that it'd almost never see use. Between pulls, AoE punts, tanks(and BW) using AoE roots, etc. Ofc, this arguement is used for a lot of abilities. Doesn't change the fact it happens though.

I agree with the unbreakable part though.

I forgot about those. You only see bw/sorc's when they're trying to escape though. not to keep enemies from fleeing.

I don't see a need to actually replace the ability at all- instead just make the current ability more desirable. The OP just says the mastery has always been viable- (so why change it?-) but the ability sucks. no explanation as to why it sucks, why it needs to be replaced or why he is proposing it- other than "to break the monotony." the proposal doesn't follow the standard format.

It's entirely random.

footpatrol2's suggestions seem far more reasonable as they are actually trying to improve the ability and not just create a random ability "just because."

". If a proposal does not meet the general guidelines of presenting an issue, explanation of said issue, and solution to said issue,"

[Sedok]

Grimnir's Fury doesn't need to be reworked, just tweaked. Its an extremely powerful, situational ability that has single-handily turned the tides in keep defenses three times for my old guild and is the source of a lot of great memories. It requires pre-planning and coordination to work, but it rightly rewards such play with the potential to completely swing the momentum of a fight.

It's currently broken by the same doomsday bug that has afflicted Alter Fate since AoR's launch, but if it were fixed, the only thing that needs to be changed on GF is the range. The only way to get most or everyone of your group up is to make sure they die literally on top of each other, otherwise you'll only get 1-2 people depending on how spread out they are (which is easily ruined by a knockback). You also have to die in a place safe for the RP to self-ress on top of you. It would be a much better choice at 75 - 100ft., to allow the RP to use it through walls or above/below the group.

[Foomy44]

An AoE CC ability that ignores CC immunity seems like almost the definition of OP to me, what is the logic behind casually slipping that into the proposal? Is this really the only ability in the game that would deserve the roll of undefendable CC, and why? Not seeing how order or RPs need this.