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Morals redesign idea

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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#31 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:07 am

wonshot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 am
Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:44 am

so you know wonshot,
My main objection to morals is not dying, that i am good at :)
The problem is the combination of aoe, high damage, no mitigation, and too high an impact in the game.

The summary of the proposal is :
alter moral gain, remove aoe damage morals, make morals go though standard mitigation.

The video is simply showing morals is uable for defence and offence so arguments that they are for breaking bottlenecks is wrong, as they can be used equaly well for defending as attacking.

So here we are, you being a fully defensive tank who takes part in the ocara zoneblobs, and me on the other side trying to defeat said blob. Now that we have the backgrounds established lets look at what we both want

You: Want to remove my Aoe Morales because its not fun for you to spec into full tank, and then get blown up by unmittigated truedamage.

Me: Get pass those big annoying tanks who soak up aoe targetcap, block the DPS classes, and hinder me in getting to the backline. Where I often need to use my moral on the tankline, because they take so little damage that I have to spend more time on them than I can afford because I am presured by shear numbers you bring.


I can see from your point of view, how you find it annoying to take 1200 damage without any of it being unmitigated. Can you see from my point of view how I need this tool when I am fighting your numbers 2:1 or 3:1? I am not saying its not a tool I dont use in even fights, but thats where the game, and moral game is ballanced in my book: You can moral pump too.
I also play soc quite a lot, just more dps around than tanks :(

When making the proposal I explicitly try and remove my benifit part from the picture and try to see is what best for the game.
Moral bombing fights and tactics are relativly trivial (especialy with the moral gain at current levels).
Moral bombing has too high an impact on the game(especialy with the moral gain at current levels).
a good long fight is a good thing, and aoe bomb wb without morals are still strong.

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Tesq
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#32 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:17 am

wonshot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 am
Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:44 am

so you know wonshot,
My main objection to morals is not dying, that i am good at :)
The problem is the combination of aoe, high damage, no mitigation, and too high an impact in the game.

The summary of the proposal is :
alter moral gain, remove aoe damage morals, make morals go though standard mitigation.

The video is simply showing morals is uable for defence and offence so arguments that they are for breaking bottlenecks is wrong, as they can be used equaly well for defending as attacking.

So here we are, you being a fully defensive tank who takes part in the ocara zoneblobs, and me on the other side trying to defeat said blob. Now that we have the backgrounds established lets look at what we both want

You: Want to remove my Aoe Morales because its not fun for you to spec into full tank, and then get blown up by unmittigated truedamage.

Me: Get pass those big annoying tanks who soak up aoe targetcap, block the DPS classes, and hinder me in getting to the backline. Where I often need to use my moral on the tankline, because they take so little damage that I have to spend more time on them than I can afford because I am presured by shear numbers you bring.


I can see from your point of view, how you find it annoying to take 1200 damage without any of it being unmitigated. Can you see from my point of view how I need this tool when I am fighting your numbers 2:1 or 3:1? I am not saying its not a tool I dont use in even fights, but thats where the game, and moral game is ballanced in my book: You can moral pump too.
A) if your problem is too many ppl to kill then then morales should have no target cap this would make numerical advantage removed if thats the prob while by also lower dmg a bit you remove the cheese in fair fights.
Because lets stop pretend morales can be uaed to kill zerg atm moralea hit. 9 ppl, only 9 ppl ( in what 72 vs 72?) a nuke from morales can kill only less than half wb, so is clear that the morales drop atm ia used as either:

-Break/create a momentun (psicologically vs ppl that dont get thet the safest moment to push iz exatly post morales drop because they have 1 min before a new drop)

-to kill an equal wb which you cant just spam normal rotation.

(Basically you consider x but you use morale for y)

B) if your problem is survive then coordinates def stats morales should matter more starting with sorc/engi m2 and core tank m4 vs the zerg moralea drop...
Because side with the numerical advantage can use morales too you know.
If those get made less potent you can circle def morales to face the higher tide.

C) game atm keep track only of enemy around you, even if not that right you should get less morales if your wb+ ppl around you are more than enemy. ( Basically a local aao for morales) .
This way numerical advantage and morales would be more equals. But this is a dnamic solution, static and stats one gona lead no-where.

These are alredy 3 good points ppl seems to not consuder it at all. To simplify

-morales can only kill 9 ppl inside the zerg so they are more powerfull in medium engagements or when you wanna kill not just 9 ppl but those dangerous good ppl of a certain group/guilds

-morales gain rate is the same at max for both local bigger and local smaller force. It need a new check which also need to confer a negative mod to moral gain and not just positive for higher local force in the engagement.

-def morales need to be what enable you to focua first one force then another one due being more durable. But by uaing your own normal tools with skills.

By these 3 things i can assure you if you are the smaller side in that engagement

-zerg wont have acceaa to morales before than you
-you will have access to morales faster than em
-your morales even if by few will hit /pressure all the zerg allow you to then target pick area where aoe better
-your def morales will allow you to resist higher number for an ammount of time for which you need to make good use yorself and not with math + press 1 button.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#33 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:55 am

Fixing the Altar Fate and moving it to m2-m3 might also work as a possible sollution. It's the original idea behind it, to counter Moralr drops.
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bctakhy
Posts: 90

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#34 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:58 am

Call me crazy, but what about add a ressist only for morale?
Now that u have client control that is doable. Crafted talis from any dungeon (yes, do pve for it!!) and maybe a group buff for less wanted class in group/wb?
Dunno, just random idea that come to my mind after come back from work :D

EDIT: Maybe change armor buff from DoK/WP for morale ressist and WE/WH group buff (that can be removed ofc)?
Last edited by bctakhy on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#35 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:02 am

bctakhy wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:58 am
Call me crazy, but what about add a ressist only for morale?
Now that u have client control that is doable. Crafted talis from any dungeon (yes, do pve for it!!) and maybe a group buff for less wanted class in group/wb?
Dunno, just random idea that come to my mind after come back from work :D
Plays into both the gap issue and numbers issue. Would just make the stronger more powerfull while lowbies and outnumbered would suffer the moast from this.
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Azarael
Posts: 5343

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#36 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am

So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.

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M0rw47h
Posts: 51

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#37 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:20 am

wonshot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 am
I can see from your point of view, how you find it annoying to take 1200 damage without any of it being unmitigated. Can you see from my point of view how I need this tool when I am fighting your numbers 2:1 or 3:1?
I don't think you should ever be able to win 3:1 engage by coordinating "I win button" aka morales, even if your enemies are all r16, without RR and green gear.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#38 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 am

Acidic wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:14 pm
roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:03 pm
....
A: The numbers will always be the strongest.
B: Finding a meaningful way of progression past lvl 40.
....
Point a)
Well for my part Numbers should win unless you are more skillful(morals != skill),
Numbers win with or without morals as both sides have moral, so same same but less cheeze


Point B)

Well not sure that has anything to do with morals , that gear, rr ..
and something not invented yet probably.
You took it out of context. Those would be new problems if you level the gear and rr differances as a sollution to remove and replace Morales with buffs/debuffs.
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Greenbeast
Posts: 242

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#39 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:23 am

Azarael wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am
So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.
I can only say from my point of view, that bringing back old morale gains made rvr zerg fights way faster and very passive.
Before you have to initiate a fight, apply cc, try to move front line etc. Now or at least last two warbands I leaded you do not need to engage anymore. You stay blobed, get morales and wait if enemy go in. If you came to a fight 20-30 seconds after it have been started you will lose.
So for me it mean a) now I need to look for this 2-3 marauders and you can not do anything against any kind of premade order warbands because if they have more as 2 bw you will be killed very fast. With old morales it was good to have them but you could compete without it now it is mandatory. b) we always have to blob with other warbands even more as before because game does not provide ANY other way to protect your self against morale damage, other than stack even more people together to randomize damage received. As heal I just see 1/2 of my warband die within 1.5 second spell cast after ¬10 second of combat.
Does this game need speed of a shooter game? :)

I find old morale gains were good they gave you a way to kill superior force but you had to be more smart to survive long enough. Now it is more or less "WIN" button. So it became new meta now.
I wish this morales would be reverted.

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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#40 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:29 am

Ok so as I see it from the initial part of the discution that Tesq summed up nicely we came to.

zerg wont have acceaa to morales before than you
-you will have access to morales faster than em
-your morales even if by few will hit /pressure all the zerg allow you to then target pick area where aoe better
-your def morales will allow you to resist higher number for an ammount of time for which you need to make good use yorself and not with math + press 1 button.


So we have moral gain negatively affected by friendly targets around. How close , how manny and what is the impact. I had a suggestion in original post for a formula which was designed to give 6 man teams full moral gain and more blobby groups reduced gain depending on how blobby they are.

The aoe morals should be toned down in damage to allow them to target larger numbers as they are to affect Zerg and not “I win” button against equal numbers.

We need better distribution of moral/anti moral / defense over the arechtypes. (For now we should avoid specific class discution) what should each arch type get , and how do we support choices in def .., dps ... , st .. aoe ...
Last edited by Acidic on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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