Morals redesign idea

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wachlarz
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#41 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:31 am

Make morale hit max 6 ppl nad problem fixed

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Tesq
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#42 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:35 am

Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:29 am
Ok so as I see it from the initial part of the discution that Tesq summed up nicely we came to.

zerg wont have acceaa to morales before than you
-you will have access to morales faster than em
-your morales even if by few will hit /pressure all the zerg allow you to then target pick area where aoe better
-your def morales will allow you to resist higher number for an ammount of time for which you need to make good use yorself and not with math + press 1 button.


So we have moral gain negatively affected by friendly targets around. How close , how manny and what is the impact. I had a suggestion in original post for a formula which was designed to give 6 man teams full moral gain and more blobby groups reduced gain depending on how blobby they are.

The aoe morals should be toned down in damage to allow them to target larger numbers as they are to affect Zerg and not “I win” button against equal numbers.

We need better distribution of moral/anti moral / defense over the arechtypes. (For now we should avoid specific class discution) what should each arch type get , and how do we support choices in damage tanks, dps tanks ....
yes regarding negative mod, tough it need a coefficent to be elasit enough to adapt well to all sich, and regarding toning down morales i would start with just m2-3 as, m4 meta never took place in this game fully; as conseguence of that classes balance suffer from it as most classes dont even bother with use 15 pt points morales which were intended as some form trade of and critical choice:

better moral support for x times or better core skills/builds 100% of time and in any sich

( this is not for support lazy builds rather since the moral gain even now is local condition based so local condition of engagement fastly change in seconds so is really about critical choices)

this is also why a negative mod is need, since if you find yourself more in numerical advantage you may prefer opt for more sic simpliciter normal build skipping m4 from mastery but atm there is no critical choice involved (this also make sc builds and rvr more different as in sc you wont use m4 consistently so no one gona pick em so this should also make more less copy paste for the more sich you can the whole class construction build in game.
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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#43 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:43 am

Not sure I understood what you meant with
better moral support for x times or better core skills/builds 100% of time and in any sich.
Ah I failed mental agility 101.
Guess this means choices of skills spike damage , buffs ...
Last edited by Acidic on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#44 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:46 am

Another idea.
What about a new AoE Crowd Controll effect thats function like disarm/silence effects but only for Morale skills. Last 4-5 seconds and doesn't cause Immunities. Would be given to classes with weak AoE builds like WE, WH, (and 2hander WP, duel weild DoK?)

Naming the CC "Fear".
"You instill fear to all enemies 65 feet in front of you preventing em from using any morale abilities for 4 seconds"
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Darosh
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#45 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:50 am

Greenbeast wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:23 am
b) we always have to blob with other warbands even more as before because game does not provide ANY other way to protect your self against morale damage, other than stack even more people together to randomize damage received.
As long as targetcaps are a thing blobbing will be too, you'll maybe witness a little up-and-down depending on futile FOTM changes, but thats about it.
Every single game that features RvR-esque gamemodes ultimately fails because of the very same thing: targetcaps.
Look at modern iterations of the genre, like GW2 and ESO, it's all fancy until a couple of weeks in targetcaps are introduced and entire zone populations blob up, it's no diffrent in WAR either.
You are incentivized to mindlessly stack because there is virtually no drawback (= getting wiped by a coordinated tenth of your numbers), which either kills small scale communities or banishes them into instanced formats, whilst severely crippling large scale communities as they become unsustainably dependant on each other for no good reason ~ leading to cannibalization (e.g.: cannonfodder/leecher argumentation) and detoriation of the overarching RvR (and realm-specific) community.

Abbd.: Besides the directly above: The funneling caused by targetcaps contributes to shittier server performance, often leading to anyone but tryhard RvR guilds leaving the game... killing revenue and prompting Devs to neglect the - then - impossible to fix shitshow that is their implementation of RvR.

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roadkillrobin
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#46 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:02 am

Another thing I realized that is possitive apsect of morale damage. (Kinda related to the gear rr gap issue)

Morale damage also prevents from absurd turtle bunker build warbands siting on BO and becomes unkilleble due to only having groups of 3 tanks guarding
3 healers that all are defensive speced and making BO unobtaineble. It also something that might be totally busted if Morales are removed.
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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#47 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:11 am

roadkillrobin wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:02 am
Another thing I realized that is possitive apsect of morale damage. (Kinda related to the gear rr gap issue)

Morale damage also prevents from absurd turtle bunker build warbands siting on BO and becomes unkilleble due to only having groups of 3 tanks guarding
3 healers that all are defensive speced and making BO unobtaineble. It also something that might be totally busted if Morales are removed.
There is absolutely nothing stopping those blobbed defensive tanks dumping raze ...
Morals do not help attacker or defender as both have them

But your suggestion could be looked at in a different way and that is movement/ lack of impacting moral gain
This could enable the system to support routing bottlenecks as movement is the differentiation between defender and attacker
Movement as a modifier is hard to implement and retain its purpose. Moving inch forward backwards a few inches, peanalizing engies Magnus ... too manny issues, but sounded good for a minute :)
Last edited by Acidic on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Tesq
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#48 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:16 am

Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:43 am
Not sure I understood what you meant with
better moral support for x times or better core skills/builds 100% of time and in any sich.
Ah I failed mental agility 101.
Guess this means choices of skills spike damage , buffs ...
yes decide if use +3 pt on a mastery for m4 or somewhere else (critical choice due nerfing the m2-3 meta) and consideration on how many ppl there is around and quality of enemy force (critical choices).

roadkillrobin wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:02 am
Another thing I realized that is possitive apsect of morale damage. (Kinda related to the gear rr gap issue)

Morale damage also prevents from absurd turtle bunker build warbands siting on BO and becomes unkilleble due to only having groups of 3 tanks guarding
3 healers that all are defensive speced and making BO unobtaineble. It also something that might be totally busted if Morales are removed.
but id say morales still hit 9 ppl so no way you can kill 1 full wb in such hypoteticall sich (since most likely they gona even be able to ress stuff if you have such level of tankynes; plus st skill in rvr and st heal debuff have that use most likely which is missing atm in orvr), and if that was the case my idea is that prob m4 should be used to solve problems like that, but not m2-3; the problem is not remove off morales from game but make em better integrate into the system.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Timmitz
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#49 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 am

the quick and simple solution for now would be halving the damage on all morales and halving the morale gain. This way a wb will still have the capability to push hard on a bottleneck but the impact isnt so great that building up to a moralebomb is the only viable strategy.

Besides that playing around morales only is so boring....
Timmitz (BO) Pestilentius (Chosen) Chronik (Marauder) Falaria (DoK) Poostainz (Shaman) Eadcheeze (SH) Shroomdeth (Choppa) Geriatricus (WP) Aleguts (Engi) Burnsie (BW)

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#50 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:41 am

Azarael wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am
So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.
I'll provide this from Phalanx PoV for 24 man WBs and 12 man WBs. I may have missed minorish things here and there.

==========
Order:
Knight: Auras, Tank Stuff (Guard, HTL, Challenge, Raze, champ's challenge), M3 1200 aoe dmg + root. AoE wounds buff (2h), AoE 3s stagger
Swordmaster: AoE Stat Steal, Party cooldown decreaser, Tank Stuff, AoE KB, (now also another aoe damage reduction in 11 pt vaul), AoE spirit debuff (not much use in order wbs)
Ironbreaker: Tank stuff, AoE Snare, Powerful ST Buffs, Highest Healing Ratio due to defensive tactics (last to die)

White Lion: Minor AoE Damage, M2 AoE DoT 1200/9s (crap), Ranged M1 root, Mostly useful for single target focused groups such as 12 and 6 mans.
Witch Hunter: What is a warband? M2 65 ft line 1200, Lolgun? (Honestly we never had one, maybe Xergon can fill us in here, he's always in wbs)
Slayer: High PBAoE Damage (but moderately countered by armor meta), AoE CD increaser, Short duration AoE Snare

Bright Wizard: High ranged AoE Damage, High PBAoE Damage, I heard you like damage, even to yourself!, M2 1200 PBAoE, M4 Ranged 1200 AoE, Proc Buffs, Self Morale Pump
Engineer: Best corporeal debuff (for your bright wizards), 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Magnet, Decent AoE Damage (if set up, which it rarely is), AoE Stagger, AoE Knockback.
Shadow Warrior: Crit buff for party, 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Moderate AoE damage, Mostly used for 12 man ST comps with its ranged KD.

Warrior Priest: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, AoE wounds buff
Runepriest: Wipe protection (kiting), AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff
Archmage: Morale Pump, WB Kiting (puddles), Instant Rez, Burst Healing our trapped tanky AF IB that failed to disengage (Love you, nemroth)

==========
Destro:
Chosen: Tank stuff, Auras, AoE 3s stagger, M2 I shall not die if I have a HoT!, AoE Wounds deuff, Self Morale pump 200/3s.
Black Orc: Tank Stuff, AoE Stat Steal, Self Morale Pump 144?/3s, AoE KB, party cooldown decreaser, AoE corp debuff (rarely used), M3 1200 aoe + silence
Blackguard: (We didn't use them, so basing it off career builder), Tank Stuff, AoE Wounds debuff (on crit), AoE snare, 10% block/parry strikethrough on enemies with 30ft

Marauder: ST Pull, Moderate AoE Damage with armor penetration, AoE morale drain, AoE AP drain, M2 1200 AoE, Ranged M1 root.
Choppa: High AoE Damage (mitigated by armor meta), AoE Pull (better than engi/maguc), Cooldown decreaser for party, AoE snare
Witch Elf: See witch hunter order side

Magus: High AoE Damage (if set up, rarely is), Best Spirit Debuff (for sorcs and self), "Magnet", AoE Stagger.
Sorc: See bright wizard, less PBAoE damage, More ranged AoE damage, No damage M2, M4 1200 AoE + permroot.
Squig: Never used them except in 12mans for their healer harassment and their melee tree has been changed much since I last organized warband on destro.

DoK: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, M2 Full Group Cleanse
Shaman: Party Kiting (puddle) Instant Rez, Group Morale pump (lets be honest, it was literally only for this with marauder), Wipe Prevention
Zealot: People love their fetishes, AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff, AoE KB, Self Morale Pump, M3 1200 AoE + silence


Edited to add destro and for something I missed on order.
Last edited by Ramasee on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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