Morals redesign idea

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Karast
Posts: 552

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#61 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm

A couple of quick points for this discussion.

Morale bombs are the only thing that allows smaller forces to take on larger ones and win through coordination and practice. They do no guarantee victory by any means and it is still very easy for organized warbands to counter each other's morale bombs, or for a larger zerg to simply brute force with numbers.

CC, positioning, interrupts, AoE guns, coordinated pushes, and massing players into bigger balls are all ways to avoid, break, and survive morale bombs that warbands can use. Many argue that morale bombs have no counter, that is blatantly false. Being successful as a warband is not so much about dropping morales, as it is breaking them and surviving them and there are plenty of ways to do it, and plenty of warband leaders, guilds, and players that do so.

Also morale bombing is not that easy to do as those that rail against it and call it unskilled seem to think. Try getting a full warband together following closely in coms, with spec's and comps, and then try to morale bomb against large enemy numbers. It takes a lot of practice and coordination to do well. If it was as easy as people claim it to be, there would be massive numbers of WB's doing it right now, but there are not. It is very easy for people who don't actually lead, organize or play in warband guilds to cry foul on morale bombs as unskilled when they have never had to actually make it work consistently on a WB level. This is a play style that appeals to a good part of the community. It is what made this game fun for us and it is why we keep playing. Some people don't like this play style, that's fine, but any regular warband leader will tell you that getting people to follow, listen, and fight on command is not easy, and being successful at it is not easy.

Does this mean morales are fine as they are? No.

The classes that can play in morale bombing are limited. There is a very big difference between those with decent bombing morales like say a BW, and those with junk morales like engi / SL. Having a meatier melee ball becomes more important so back line players slowly get pushed out in favor of having more bodies to soak and split incoming damage. Which means on destro side more mara's, and less casters.

On live there were no AoE guns as well, which can become nasty when combined with bombs.

I would argue that morale abilities are in need of archtype wide tweaking and balancing to give all dps, tanks, and healers access to viable morale for WB play, and to make the morale system more fluid for all careers. For example giving all mdps, and rdps a version of the BW / Mara 1200 M2. Mirroring solar flare, and potentially even looking at ST abilities, and general tree placement on AoE morales.

In addition the cooldown on morale abilities themselves may need to be tweaked up. A simple addition of 30s to the morale cooldown would have a drastic effect, and even further to 2 min total could be needed.

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Acidic
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#62 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Most of what you posted has been discussed in this thread.
Strongly recommend reading the full thread rather than forcing us to circularly keep rediscussing the same things.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#63 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:07 pm

dansari wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:48 pm
wachlarz wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm
If enemy wb have morals up, morale drain dont work proper. If tanks are melted in 10s, maruder melt in 2s and he cant make single attack to use morale drain. More classes need easy acces to morale drain, or other system of morale drains
Well, yeah, if you have morales up and the enemy doesn't, you're probably going to win. I don't think that matters much when talking about morale drain capabilities, personally; Mara drain can be brutal if used effectively at the beginning of a fresh engage.
I posted a sollution to this.

roadkillrobin wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:46 am
Another idea.
What about a new AoE Crowd Controll effect thats function like disarm/silence effects but only for Morale skills. Last 4-5 seconds and doesn't cause Immunities. Would be given to classes with weak AoE builds like WE, WH, (and 2hander WP, duel weild DoK?)

Naming the CC "Fear".
"You instill fear to all enemies 65 feet in front of you preventing em from using any morale abilities for 4 seconds"
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dansari
Posts: 2479

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#64 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:23 pm

oaliaen wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:53 pm
im gonna talk : yestarday i was in order side doing rvr in ThunderMountain, we were in the keep waiting the siege equipments, so a blob was formed there. There was a BW and he was spamming morals like a crazy, whit no enemies around. How easy can it be now?

I think morals are broken for sure.
?? What animation were you seeing?
<Salt Factory>

Dansarann / SW
Dansaram / RP
Dansaren / BW
Dansarii / Eng
Dansari / WH

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Xergon
Posts: 449

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#65 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Ramasee wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:41 am
Azarael wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am
So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.
Spoiler:
==========
Order:
Knight: Auras, Tank Stuff (Guard, HTL, Challenge, Raze, champ's challenge), M3 1200 aoe dmg + root. AoE wounds buff (2h), AoE 3s stagger
Swordmaster: AoE Stat Steal, Party cooldown decreaser, Tank Stuff, AoE KB, (now also another aoe damage reduction in 11 pt vaul), AoE spirit debuff (not much use in order wbs)
Ironbreaker: Tank stuff, AoE Snare, Powerful ST Buffs, Highest Healing Ratio due to defensive tactics (last to die)

White Lion: Minor AoE Damage, M2 AoE DoT 1200/9s (crap), Ranged M1 root, Mostly useful for single target focused groups such as 12 and 6 mans.
Witch Hunter: What is a warband? M2 65 ft line 1200, Lolgun? (Honestly we never had one, maybe Xergon can fill us in here, he's always in wbs)
Slayer: High PBAoE Damage (but moderately countered by armor meta), AoE CD increaser, Short duration AoE Snare

Bright Wizard: High ranged AoE Damage, High PBAoE Damage, I heard you like damage, even to yourself!, M2 1200 PBAoE, M4 Ranged 1200 AoE, Proc Buffs, Self Morale Pump
Engineer: Best corporeal debuff (for your bright wizards), 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Magnet, Decent AoE Damage (if set up, which it rarely is), AoE Stagger, AoE Knockback.
Shadow Warrior: Crit buff for party, 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Moderate AoE damage, Mostly used for 12 man ST comps with its ranged KD.

Warrior Priest: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, AoE wounds buff
Runepriest: Wipe protection (kiting), AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff
Archmage: Morale Pump, WB Kiting (puddles), Instant Rez, Burst Healing our trapped tanky AF IB that failed to disengage (Love you, nemroth)

==========
Destro:
Chosen: Tank stuff, Auras, AoE 3s stagger, M2 I shall not die if I have a HoT!, AoE Wounds deuff, Self Morale pump 200/3s.
Black Orc: Tank Stuff, AoE Stat Steal, Self Morale Pump 144?/3s, AoE KB, party cooldown decreaser, AoE corp debuff (rarely used), M3 1200 aoe + silence
Blackguard: (We didn't use them, so basing it off career builder), Tank Stuff, AoE Wounds debuff (on crit), AoE snare, 10% block/parry strikethrough on enemies with 30ft

Marauder: ST Pull, Moderate AoE Damage with armor penetration, AoE morale drain, AoE AP drain, M2 1200 AoE, Ranged M1 root.
Choppa: High AoE Damage (mitigated by armor meta), AoE Pull (better than engi/maguc), Cooldown decreaser for party, AoE snare
Witch Elf: See witch hunter order side

Magus: High AoE Damage (if set up, rarely is), Best Spirit Debuff (for sorcs and self), "Magnet", AoE Stagger.
Sorc: See bright wizard, less PBAoE damage, More ranged AoE damage, No damage M2, M4 1200 AoE + permroot.
Squig: Never used them except in 12mans for their healer harassment and their melee tree has been changed much since I last organized warband on destro.

DoK: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, M2 Full Group Cleanse
Shaman: Party Kiting (puddle) Instant Rez, Group Morale pump (lets be honest, it was literally only for this with marauder), Wipe Prevention
Zealot: People love their fetishes, AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff, AoE KB, Self Morale Pump, M3 1200 AoE + silence


Edited to add destro and for something I missed on order.

Yes, thats very good summary about current game state of morales.
Yes, i can make WH be somewhat useful in PUG WB, providing some AoE pressure either with heal/ini debuffs or raw dmg, but is he better than Slayer or BW? Hell no! And will probably never have place in premade WB at the current state of game. You say he has m2 dmg, well its same as BW so everyone will pick BW, u say he has m4, well BW's m4 is almost as strong and its 100ft range with morale drain... On paper 4 WH with M4 if use it at same time should clear frontline (4 x 2400 = 9600) so, will any premade WB keep 4 WH's around just to use m4 ? I don't think so...
WH has tactic to morale drain - cool, its in ST tree at 11 points AND it requires to hit enemy in back AND then it also has 25% chance to proc - cool, no way to compare with aoe from Mara...
To fix/balance it accordingly to Mara drain:
1st it would have to be in Confession (AoE) Tree, or swap it with Atonement tactic which would make it available for AoE tree,
2nd proc condition needs to be changed to something like:
a) make it proc of crit,
"Any time you hit enemy with critical hit, there is 25% chance that they will lose 225 points of Morale".
b) or rework it into something like when u kill (score killblow) on enemy, enemies around will lose morale (or some value),
"Any time you land a killing blow on your enemy, enemies in 30ft around (target or you) will lose full/Xammount of morale.

Also AoE dmg for WH/WE should be buffed, not directly but indirectly, for example AoE tactic which makes RazorStrike/Slice hitting 3 enemies, it doesn't provide additional accusation/bloodlust from hitting additional targets, which in my opinion should. This change would allow WE/WH bring more to AoE table not only with raw dmg but also with more options of using more finishers.

Timmitz wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:49 am
on the long run reworking the morales could make some classes more desirable in warbands and add more flavour to the class itself. More cc less damage.

A nice M4 for a we/wh could be a 10% damage buff for 10 secs for party or 5secs for all within 30ft? Or grant stealth to party for a short while?

Yes, i was also thinking about idea of M4 that grants stealth group but it would pretty hard to implement, and we would have to think how players would exploit it first.

Karast wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
The classes that can play in morale bombing are limited. There is a very big difference between those with decent bombing morales like say a BW, and those with junk morales like engi / SL. Having a meatier melee ball becomes more important so back line players slowly get pushed out in favor of having more bodies to soak and split incoming damage. Which means on destro side more mara's, and less casters.

Hmm, so u think AoE KD with DMG from Slayer is junkie m4 ? I strongly disagree, we made it working in DnD WBs
Last edited by Xergon on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Tesq
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#66 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:21 pm

Spoiler:
Xergon wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:27 pm
Ramasee wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:41 am
Azarael wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am
So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.
Spoiler:
==========
Order:
Knight: Auras, Tank Stuff (Guard, HTL, Challenge, Raze, champ's challenge), M3 1200 aoe dmg + root. AoE wounds buff (2h), AoE 3s stagger
Swordmaster: AoE Stat Steal, Party cooldown decreaser, Tank Stuff, AoE KB, (now also another aoe damage reduction in 11 pt vaul), AoE spirit debuff (not much use in order wbs)
Ironbreaker: Tank stuff, AoE Snare, Powerful ST Buffs, Highest Healing Ratio due to defensive tactics (last to die)

White Lion: Minor AoE Damage, M2 AoE DoT 1200/9s (crap), Ranged M1 root, Mostly useful for single target focused groups such as 12 and 6 mans.
Witch Hunter: What is a warband? M2 65 ft line 1200, Lolgun? (Honestly we never had one, maybe Xergon can fill us in here, he's always in wbs)
Slayer: High PBAoE Damage (but moderately countered by armor meta), AoE CD increaser, Short duration AoE Snare

Bright Wizard: High ranged AoE Damage, High PBAoE Damage, I heard you like damage, even to yourself!, M2 1200 PBAoE, M4 Ranged 1200 AoE, Proc Buffs, Self Morale Pump
Engineer: Best corporeal debuff (for your bright wizards), 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Magnet, Decent AoE Damage (if set up, which it rarely is), AoE Stagger, AoE Knockback.
Shadow Warrior: Crit buff for party, 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Moderate AoE damage, Mostly used for 12 man ST comps with its ranged KD.

Warrior Priest: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, AoE wounds buff
Runepriest: Wipe protection (kiting), AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff
Archmage: Morale Pump, WB Kiting (puddles), Instant Rez, Burst Healing our trapped tanky AF IB that failed to disengage (Love you, nemroth)

==========
Destro:
Chosen: Tank stuff, Auras, AoE 3s stagger, M2 I shall not die if I have a HoT!, AoE Wounds deuff, Self Morale pump 200/3s.
Black Orc: Tank Stuff, AoE Stat Steal, Self Morale Pump 144?/3s, AoE KB, party cooldown decreaser, AoE corp debuff (rarely used), M3 1200 aoe + silence
Blackguard: (We didn't use them, so basing it off career builder), Tank Stuff, AoE Wounds debuff (on crit), AoE snare, 10% block/parry strikethrough on enemies with 30ft

Marauder: ST Pull, Moderate AoE Damage with armor penetration, AoE morale drain, AoE AP drain, M2 1200 AoE, Ranged M1 root.
Choppa: High AoE Damage (mitigated by armor meta), AoE Pull (better than engi/maguc), Cooldown decreaser for party, AoE snare
Witch Elf: See witch hunter order side

Magus: High AoE Damage (if set up, rarely is), Best Spirit Debuff (for sorcs and self), "Magnet", AoE Stagger.
Sorc: See bright wizard, less PBAoE damage, More ranged AoE damage, No damage M2, M4 1200 AoE + permroot.
Squig: Never used them except in 12mans for their healer harassment and their melee tree has been changed much since I last organized warband on destro.

DoK: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, M2 Full Group Cleanse
Shaman: Party Kiting (puddle) Instant Rez, Group Morale pump (lets be honest, it was literally only for this with marauder), Wipe Prevention
Zealot: People love their fetishes, AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff, AoE KB, Self Morale Pump, M3 1200 AoE + silence


Edited to add destro and for something I missed on order.

Yes, thats very good summary about current game state of morales.
Yes, i can make WH be somewhat useful in PUG WB, providing some AoE pressure either with heal/ini debuffs or raw dmg, but is he better than Slayer or BW? Hell no! And will probably never have place in premade WB at the current state of game. You say he has m2 dmg, well its same as BW so everyone will pick BW, u say he has m4, well BW's m4 is almost as strong and its 100ft range with morale drain... On paper 4 WH with M4 if use it at same time should clear frontline (4 x 2400 = 9600) so, will any premade WB keep 4 WH's around just to use m4 ? I don't think so...
WH has tactic to morale drain - cool, its in ST tree at 11 points AND it requires to hit enemy in back AND then it also has 25% chance to proc - cool, no way to compare with aoe from Mara...
To fix/balance it accordingly to Mara drain:
1st it would have to be in Confression (AoE) Tree, or swap it with Atonement tactic which would make it available for AoE tree,
2nd proc condition needs to be changed to something like:
a) make it proc of crit,
"Any time you hit enemy with critical hit, there is 25% chance that they will lose 225 points of Morale".
b) or rework it into something like when u kill (score killblow) on enemy, enemies around will lose morale (or some value),
"Any time you land a killing blow on your enemy, enemies in 30ft around (target or you) will lose full/Xammount of morale.

Also AoE dmg for WH/WE should be buffed, not directly but indirectly, for example AoE tactic which makes RazorStrike/Slice hitting 3 enemies, it doesn't provide additional accusation/bloodlust from hitting additional targets, which in my opinion should. This change would allow WE/WH bring more to AoE table not only with raw dmg but also with more options of using more finishers.

Timmitz wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:49 am
on the long run reworking the morales could make some classes more desirable in warbands and add more flavour to the class itself. More cc less damage.

A nice M4 for a we/wh could be a 10% damage buff for 10 secs for party or 5secs for all within 30ft? Or grant stealth to party for a short while?

Yes, i was also thinking about idea of M4 that grants stealth group but it would pretty hard to implement, and we would have to think how players would exploit it first.

Karast wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:01 pm
The classes that can play in morale bombing are limited. There is a very big difference between those with decent bombing morales like say a BW, and those with junk morales like engi / SL. Having a meatier melee ball becomes more important so back line players slowly get pushed out in favor of having more bodies to soak and split incoming damage. Which means on destro side more mara's, and less casters.

Hmm, so u think AoE KD with DMG from Slayer is junkie m4 ? I strongly disagree, we made it working in DnD WBs
mah side note:
Spoiler:
-the problem with wh aoe is that dragon gun was fixed for st play mostly with st KD, pretty much wrong.....(should probably be made 2 sec aoe kd as mara and not st rkd as which elf)
-the second problem is the wh target cap, lets face that with a 50% heal debuff which can go aoe the chance that you **** up healrs can go potentially up pretty high so the target cap need to be somewhere between 3-9 but not 8/ 9; most likely 4- 6 for dragon gun and dragon gun made more spambale 5-7 sec cd (most likely 7 do let enemy cleanse it regulary ) and kd effect removed and made aoe frontal. If dragon gun was made like mara KD but still max 6 target if finisher (or 9 if not) then trial by pain should had been changed into aoe finisher or that could be left for a tactic.
-the razor strike need aswell to be changed to 6 target for base.....cap 3 only with a tactic which also reduces minus 10% dmg is just ridiculus is not viable in the slighest is just need a brain dead Qol change....
-and of course moral tactic need to work with chance 25% in front as mara and auto from behind (because target cap for 2wh would be 6 and not 9)......
-the razor tactic since razor strike is not positional and the most "assoult mode on " skill of the class (in the sense you take the enemy head on) should make stuff interesting in some way, no clue here but it should be a worth tactic (maybe see above about make trial by pain aoe and 6 target cap)
-van horstman speculum need a rewamp too (see my proposal)
-the last tactic is just the +35% dmg on disrupt which pop ez in rvr so the class with a good m2 could shine in rvr and be fun

since mara hit 9 target and wh 6 (but no % chance from behind) that would make some moral countering stuff while also keep classes bit different and will reward an aggressive wh play in open field that way.

with:
-decent moral drain
-decent aoe target cap
-if keep the ista nuke 1200 m2
-decent rvr /wb dedicated relic
-1 dam aoe finisher with a decent CD
-and a net 35% dmg increase tactic
-1 out of 3 more than decend aoe debuff to pick and which can fast swap depending on who you are attacking and due the sich( outgoing heal debuff, ap drain, ini debuff)

wh could be very nice to play in wb it just need some small tweek on stuff alredy there (build is alredy even rr 70)...

RoR.builders - Witch Hunter
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Karast
Posts: 552

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#67 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:49 am

Xergon wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:27 pm



Hmm, so u think AoE KD with DMG from Slayer is junkie m4 ? I strongly disagree, we made it working in DnD WBs
It's not junk but against a decent destro WB running mara drain you won't see it that often, and it is no better and even worse than BW arguably since they can hit morales faster and have lower tier options. 4 is a long way to go even in the new system where surviving against multiple warbands means dropping morales fast and then moving to setup for the next. There is not always time to go to 4's unless if you got someone pumping you. I say this as an engi who only really has spec'd M4's as a decent bombing option, who has also maximized + morale to try to make it happen.

M4 are all well and good but they are not consistently a factor fight to fight, especially in zergy situations.

Since TUP left no one on destro side is currently maximizing the benefits of Mara drain, and zealot punt, but they are catching on and given a few weeks for the current morale generation to settle we will see a big switch in tactics and comps.

WB's don't change overnight and the changes have only been up for the better part of a week. It is premature to talk about making sweeping changes when the current changes haven't even settled to the point of getting a fair look.

As a long time warband leader I can say this, since the morale change order tanks can use morales regularly. It is no longer BW or nothing order side. This has made a huge effect on warband morale. Until the change 1-2 mara's was enough to break any hope of front-liners getting morale and that whole aspect of warband play didn't really exist. So this change has been well received and tank players are much more excited about warbands now. From our perspective it has been a fantastic change and has made the game much more enjoyable than before.

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Karast
Posts: 552

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#68 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 am

Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 pm
Most of what you posted has been discussed in this thread.
Strongly recommend reading the full thread rather than forcing us to circularly keep rediscussing the same things.
There is value in having an active WB leader put a fully noted post in the discussion.

You see many problems with the current system and dislike it.

I enjoy the current system, and accept that it has issues, but I feel that a full redesign as you suggested is not needed and I gave support and reasoning for why, and minor suggestions for existing issues.

We will naturally be at odds on this topic. But if you want an honest discussion you need to allow people to voice their concerns and contribute in a polite and organized fashion. I sincerely doubt if my post was in agreement that you would have commented as you did above.

And in an additional note,

This proposal was put up only 5 days after the changes went live. It has only been roughly a week at this point. Things at the warband scale take time to change and adapt. More time is needed to see how the community handles the new morale mechanic in the long run. Even warband guilds that live and breathe this stuff have barely had the time to sit down and sort out comps, spec's, and gearing. If anything proposals on morale are too early. The changes need more time to sit with the bulk of the community.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#69 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:41 am

Karast wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 am
Spoiler:
Acidic wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 pm
Most of what you posted has been discussed in this thread.
Strongly recommend reading the full thread rather than forcing us to circularly keep rediscussing the same things.
There is value in having an active WB leader put a fully noted post in the discussion.

You see many problems with the current system and dislike it.

I enjoy the current system, and accept that it has issues, but I feel that a full redesign as you suggested is not needed and I gave support and reasoning for why, and minor suggestions for existing issues.

We will naturally be at odds on this topic. But if you want an honest discussion you need to allow people to voice their concerns and contribute in a polite and organized fashion. I sincerely doubt if my post was in agreement that you would have commented as you did above.

And in an additional note,
This proposal was put up only 5 days after the changes went live. It has only been roughly a week at this point. Things at the warband scale take time to change and adapt. More time is needed to see how the community handles the new morale mechanic in the long run. Even warband guilds that live and breathe this stuff have barely had the time to sit down and sort out comps, spec's, and gearing. If anything proposals on morale are too early. The changes need more time to sit with the bulk of the community.
I partially agree with you. Implementation of a new change would be too early. Well discussed proposals, on the other hand, are nearly always good. That way if it is decided what we have doesn't work, the team already has the ideas to start working towards. Also sometimes good ideas that are tiny tweaks pop into these threads too.

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Tesq
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Re: Morals redesign idea

Post#70 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:59 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:47 pm
Genisaurus wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 pm
roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:15 pm
The problem with this is that it plays into the gear issue aswell. With a dot portion you essentially just boost the dps output of the side that allready have better dps output from gear and rr (and certainly better cordination and dps rotations aswell) allready, aswell as giving the side that have better healing output (which they get from gear and rr) a better chance.
How does converting DD morales to DoT effects boost the DPS output of one side more than the DD morales already do? The healing argument is a good point though, having warning that you have a Morale DoT effect on you means it can be healed through, as opposed to no-warning direct damage.

Could these concerns be addressed by giving each morale a unique cooldown timer, with high damage bombing morales being on a longer cooldown? Without using specific numbers you could have something like

Shortest CD -> Longest CD:
Single target damage/defense -> Group Buff/Debuff -> Group Defense -> AoE Damage

With adjustments for specific cases. Lowest CDs start at the classic 60s.

Alternatively, what about this idea?

1. lower the base morale gain rate, and scale it up by the number of people in your group.
2. Then hijack the unused main-assist functionality to designate someone as the parties' morale user, and they are the only ones who generate morale, but at the increased rate.
3. Buff underperforming morales (or nerf overperforming ones) to make their selection an actual strategic decision for a group.

Just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks.
Coz the DoT effect would sit ontop of normal damage being dealt, so the outcome would still be that the side with better stuff would deal more damage. But I just now relized that here's were CC's like AoE staggers, AOE KB and AoE roots would actually be pretty usefull. The problem with it is the immunity, were a solo PuG can come a ruin the entire outcome. Maybe a tweak to the AoE CC immunites and AoE Morale DoT''s might actually be a good sollution.

I don't think different CD would solve anything. There's just to long resets between engagements. And then it also turns into a game of whoever wasted their CD in a previus fight vs people who have theirs off CD if timers are to long.

Morale rates are to inbeded into the entire class designs to be messed with imo. You would need to redesign almoast every class from scratch to work this out. It's part of the core combat system.
A bit late this quote but i missed it.
That is only half part of the true if you pop dot morales enemy can pop def morales so the burst coming from stack morales and normal skill is reduced a lot and healable , make em dot from istant give ppl a form of counter play, counter play that wont happen with a negative mod if you outnumber the enemy. This way everything go well and sort out. And wb vs wb fight became more equal and kill, not survive, is more challenging and the game is more fun.

@all

Regarding new changes is true ppl need time to adapt but is crystal clear how moral new rate influemce the engagements, ppl are usually more scared to engage and are more cautius plus engage and disengage are more frequently im succession. Not necessary a bad thing just this was expected.
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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