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Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#1 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:37 pm

I figured with the discussion around redesigning morales, perhaps we should start at the archtype level and balance the archtypes. Then we can look at the 7 "unique" morales each class has after that. We'd also want to split up the discussion between the 5 archtypes (yes 5). My suggestions for each category try to balance many of things brought up in the other thread, but as always lets discuss!

This is the engineer, shadow warrior, and squig herder section of archtypal morale balances. All classes that have a direct damage morale (m1-m3) in this category would need to have it redesigned. Minor adjustments to M3 and M4 to make it inline with other DPS archtype changes. RPDpS has 30ft on its ranged AoE M3 because it is a channel instead of fire and forget.

Concealment: Same
Point-Blank: Same
Class Specific M1: Looked at individually

Class Specific M2: Looked at individually
Unshakeable Focus: Same (new, not the old)
Focused Mind: Same (I feel there is split in community here about usefulness per class, discuss)

Class Specific M3: Looked at individually
Explosive Shots: Target one enemy with 65ft, deal 400 damage a second for 3s to the target and all enemies with 30ft.

Mastery Specific M4: Looked at individually
Hail of Doom: Increase radius to 30ft.

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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#2 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:31 pm

Opening. Let's just discuss the archetype morales rather than delving into any class specific morales yet.
<Salt Factory>

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Darks63
Posts: 651

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#3 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:46 pm

So would outsider patrol (targetable 1200 aoe damage)be looked at as well since it is a m2 and not a m3 or 4?
Tourist SW 40/50+<Zaxxed> Discotec 40/40+<IRONIC>

Former Pragg/Badlands Destro Iron Rock/Badlands Order player.

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#4 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:01 am

PRDPS have the weakest AoE morales atm.

The shared M2 for dps is UF which was nerfed and now returned as an anti taunt that doesn't really have a place outside of 6 man. The core M3 explosive shots is weak, while not entirely bad, it forces ability use to trigger the damage which makes it weaker than other options, and the core M4 hail of doom is simply trash that does less damage than raze. Mirroring the current SW M2 outsider patrol and moving it to 3 and then buff explosive shots to 600 from 300 and putting at as core M4 could smooth out the core morales.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#5 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:36 am

@Darks63 Yes

@Karast Hail of Doom is 300 damage every 0.5 for 5s. That's 3,000 damage hardlly less than raze. The issue in the morale comes at its small radius (20ft) for 5s channel. A radius increase to 30ft would cause this to hit more targets. This morale is quite useful is combined with an AoE knockdown (such as blowing up an engi turret, or mara) and is arguable better than other archtypes current M4s (not the mastery ones)

Also I did kind of mirror outsider patrol to all dps M3s, slightly different per archtype. I did so by changing explosive shots.

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lefze
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Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#6 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:01 am PRDPS have the weakest AoE morales atm.

The shared M2 for dps is UF which was nerfed and now returned as an anti taunt that doesn't really have a place outside of 6 man. The core M3 explosive shots is weak, while not entirely bad, it forces ability use to trigger the damage which makes it weaker than other options, and the core M4 hail of doom is simply trash that does less damage than raze. Mirroring the current SW M2 outsider patrol and moving it to 3 and then buff explosive shots to 600 from 300 and putting at as core M4 could smooth out the core morales.
They do have the weakest archetype AoE damage morales yes, but class specifics are either in-line or better than most other morales and even the single best AoE morale is on one of the PRDPS. The lack of AoE morales on some classes stem from the fact they have access to ulitlity/defensive stuff instead, or simply that another class in the faction covers it.

And then comes the question, are you willing to trade some of the defensive/utility morales present in the place of damage morales to gain access to these? Mirroring of morales can't be done on a one for for nothing basis, not even with the Archetype morales.

And this isn't tied to a single archetype or a single class. Let's say all physical rpds get access to AoE morales. How do you compensate? Do you give all the class specific morales the classes that gained a morale had access to to all other classes? Do you flat out remove the previous morales? And after that you have to look at the overall amount and speed at which the other classes in the factions get morales. Now there are more morales in play on both sides, do you take away Ruin and Destruction+Great Fang?

At the end of the day the only possible solution once you start messing with the morales like this is that you have to perfectly mirror absolutely every morale to both sides. Then what do you do about moralepumps and moraledrains? Well, you have to either remove those or mirror them aswell. And well, At that point the drains need to be on classes that are equally valuable in warbands for both sides, so you gotta do some more mirroring to fit it in to the new game where everyone has all morales. Or do you remove the moraledrains? Well damn, selfpumps still assure certain classes get morales faster than others, so moraledrains are necessary. so what now? Well obviously have to get rid of all moralepumps aswell, or mirror these, and this goes for both selfpumps and AM/Shammy pumps.

After that we have most of it mirrored, but ****, how do we balance the rest of the game? Now we have both sides decked out with AoE morales on all classes, so why is one side still getting shat on? Oh that's it, one side has the AP to keep up the pressure indefinetly, and the tools to supress the AP of the other side to a point where in prolonged engagements the only thing being put put out is autos and morales. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Guess we have to mirror RP and Zeally a bit, and consider deleting Mara from the game completely.

The point is that morales can't be toyed with like this, you either leave it as it is, take the effort to rebalance the whole game, or start messing with things to a point where everything becomes a complete and utter clusterfuck that no one is gonna bother touching ever again. Simply put, even 1200 damage AoE morales can't be handed out as if they belong on every class. In fact no morales can be handed out freely without affecting the whole design of certain classes and specs.
Rip Phalanx

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#7 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:15 pm

lefze wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 pm
Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:01 am PRDPS have the weakest AoE morales atm.

The shared M2 for dps is UF which was nerfed and now returned as an anti taunt that doesn't really have a place outside of 6 man. The core M3 explosive shots is weak, while not entirely bad, it forces ability use to trigger the damage which makes it weaker than other options, and the core M4 hail of doom is simply trash that does less damage than raze. Mirroring the current SW M2 outsider patrol and moving it to 3 and then buff explosive shots to 600 from 300 and putting at as core M4 could smooth out the core morales.
They do have the weakest archetype AoE damage morales yes, but class specifics are either in-line or better than most other morales and even the single best AoE morale is on one of the PRDPS. The lack of AoE morales on some classes stem from the fact they have access to ulitlity/defensive stuff instead, or simply that another class in the faction covers it.

And then comes the question, are you willing to trade some of the defensive/utility morales present in the place of damage morales to gain access to these? Mirroring of morales can't be done on a one for for nothing basis, not even with the Archetype morales.

And this isn't tied to a single archetype or a single class. Let's say all physical rpds get access to AoE morales. How do you compensate? Do you give all the class specific morales the classes that gained a morale had access to to all other classes? Do you flat out remove the previous morales? And after that you have to look at the overall amount and speed at which the other classes in the factions get morales. Now there are more morales in play on both sides, do you take away Ruin and Destruction+Great Fang?

At the end of the day the only possible solution once you start messing with the morales like this is that you have to perfectly mirror absolutely every morale to both sides. Then what do you do about moralepumps and moraledrains? Well, you have to either remove those or mirror them aswell. And well, At that point the drains need to be on classes that are equally valuable in warbands for both sides, so you gotta do some more mirroring to fit it in to the new game where everyone has all morales. Or do you remove the moraledrains? Well damn, selfpumps still assure certain classes get morales faster than others, so moraledrains are necessary. so what now? Well obviously have to get rid of all moralepumps aswell, or mirror these, and this goes for both selfpumps and AM/Shammy pumps.

After that we have most of it mirrored, but ****, how do we balance the rest of the game? Now we have both sides decked out with AoE morales on all classes, so why is one side still getting shat on? Oh that's it, one side has the AP to keep up the pressure indefinetly, and the tools to supress the AP of the other side to a point where in prolonged engagements the only thing being put put out is autos and morales. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Guess we have to mirror RP and Zeally a bit, and consider deleting Mara from the game completely.

The point is that morales can't be toyed with like this, you either leave it as it is, take the effort to rebalance the whole game, or start messing with things to a point where everything becomes a complete and utter clusterfuck that no one is gonna bother touching ever again. Simply put, even 1200 damage AoE morales can't be handed out as if they belong on every class. In fact no morales can be handed out freely without affecting the whole design of certain classes and specs.
First, I miss having conversations with you, Lefze.

You know firsthand that classes that bring good utilities and have AoE damage cannot be brought to bomb warbands because they have no AoE damage morales. In these proposal, so far the only ones being removed/replaced are the archtype morales. I'll keep to this particular archtype in response, but it could play out similarly in the others.

Most of the PRDpS archtype morales are oriented towards damage currently. They are being updated and still are damage oriented.

(This next part is to show what can be done, made up on the spot and not a proposal yet)
Unique M2s:
Shadow Warrior - Outrider Patrol = Would obviously have to be redesigned. Something like For 10s you are counted as being in all 3 combat stances.
Squig Herder - Squig Goo = Probably okay as it is, even though it has a aoe damage component, it is over 9s. Also could swap with their unique m3, all kinds of choices
Engineer - Armor Plating = Probably could stay. Someone was worried tank changes may push this to non-viable. Secondary idea is something like resummon your dead turret, generate 4 stacks of IW, turret takes no damage for 10s.

Unique M3s:
Shadow Warrior - Instill Fear = Probably lower/remove the damage and up the stagger. Then you have a choice between damage or cc for m3.
Squig Herder - Squigbeast = excellent flavor idea. Can be tweaked to be worth it if it isnt (im not a squig)
Engineer - Cannon Smash = Good as is. Choose between AoE damage or superb ST killing support.
(End Part)

That is where the archtype morales can lead us. To designing flavorful and unique morales based on the class rather than having some class morale being do X damage in Y radius over Z time. Archtype morales can do the boring and sometimes necessary stuff.

Yeah you basically flat out remove offending morale by making a new one to take their place. Yes this includes things like ruin&destruction and great fang.

I am generally against mirroring of the class specific morales. Balancing the rest of the game is for different threads. Current morale set up doesn't help balance out those differences in morale generation rate/ap management/ crit management/debuff/etc. However the new system would allow for class based morales to help combat those issues without mirroring if that's the route we want to take. I am more than happy to discuss the morale rate minigame and the drains and pumps as soon as someone makes a proposal.

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#8 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:44 pm

lefze wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 pm
Spoiler:
Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:01 am PRDPS have the weakest AoE morales atm.

The shared M2 for dps is UF which was nerfed and now returned as an anti taunt that doesn't really have a place outside of 6 man. The core M3 explosive shots is weak, while not entirely bad, it forces ability use to trigger the damage which makes it weaker than other options, and the core M4 hail of doom is simply trash that does less damage than raze. Mirroring the current SW M2 outsider patrol and moving it to 3 and then buff explosive shots to 600 from 300 and putting at as core M4 could smooth out the core morales.
They do have the weakest archetype AoE damage morales yes, but class specifics are either in-line or better than most other morales and even the single best AoE morale is on one of the PRDPS. The lack of AoE morales on some classes stem from the fact they have access to ulitlity/defensive stuff instead, or simply that another class in the faction covers it.

And then comes the question, are you willing to trade some of the defensive/utility morales present in the place of damage morales to gain access to these? Mirroring of morales can't be done on a one for for nothing basis, not even with the Archetype morales.

And this isn't tied to a single archetype or a single class. Let's say all physical rpds get access to AoE morales. How do you compensate? Do you give all the class specific morales the classes that gained a morale had access to to all other classes? Do you flat out remove the previous morales? And after that you have to look at the overall amount and speed at which the other classes in the factions get morales. Now there are more morales in play on both sides, do you take away Ruin and Destruction+Great Fang?

At the end of the day the only possible solution once you start messing with the morales like this is that you have to perfectly mirror absolutely every morale to both sides. Then what do you do about moralepumps and moraledrains? Well, you have to either remove those or mirror them aswell. And well, At that point the drains need to be on classes that are equally valuable in warbands for both sides, so you gotta do some more mirroring to fit it in to the new game where everyone has all morales. Or do you remove the moraledrains? Well damn, selfpumps still assure certain classes get morales faster than others, so moraledrains are necessary. so what now? Well obviously have to get rid of all moralepumps aswell, or mirror these, and this goes for both selfpumps and AM/Shammy pumps.

After that we have most of it mirrored, but ****, how do we balance the rest of the game? Now we have both sides decked out with AoE morales on all classes, so why is one side still getting shat on? Oh that's it, one side has the AP to keep up the pressure indefinetly, and the tools to supress the AP of the other side to a point where in prolonged engagements the only thing being put put out is autos and morales. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Guess we have to mirror RP and Zeally a bit, and consider deleting Mara from the game completely.

The point is that morales can't be toyed with like this, you either leave it as it is, take the effort to rebalance the whole game, or start messing with things to a point where everything becomes a complete and utter clusterfuck that no one is gonna bother touching ever again. Simply put, even 1200 damage AoE morales can't be handed out as if they belong on every class. In fact no morales can be handed out freely without affecting the whole design of certain classes and specs.
To be honest with you I don't see a full review of morale to morale of every career in the game as being possible due to the time it would take.

But adjusting the core archtype morals to a slightly more functional set is a more achievable goal that has the benefit of being balanced cross faction. And by no means should 1200 AoE be the model of how it is done. That was merely an easy example. There are other ways of doing it. Personally I prefer raze type abilities over instants for this since they are what I feel to be a good balance between damage, and counter ability.

Also I am not saying that this is a perfect solution to the problems, and just giving SH or Engi a 1200 at M2 or M3 does nothing to really address the fact that BW will still simply do a better job thanks to morale pump. It also doesn't address the issues of pumps and drains, or that fact that there are simply career specific morales that are better than what the core would offer.

But it gives a core set of tools to allow those careers to at least try to participate and I think raze is a good example of such a tool. If you choose to try to build a lot of Engi's and SL's into a warband you are punished for it compared to if you went for BW's instead. If you choose to go for choppas / SH's you are equally punished for it. But when it comes to tanks and healers that is not exactly the case. All tanks can bring raze, all healers FM. Making a few small changes, adding a morale or changing a morale to be more function could do that and be a more modular solution.

As an engi I dislike the utility argument since utility doesn't stack well in WB you only need so many utility classes, a dps slot is a dps slot and that is the heart of the matter. I am not in some delusional state where I think everyone should be equally good at everything, a BW should do more damage than an engi, and having differences is not necessarily bad, but options should exist to try. The gap can be lowered to help promote more WB diversity, I disagree with the notion that any 1 career should dominate a WB makeup in an organized setting, and in an unorganized setting all should have viable options to fight back with.

The factions and careers are too different for total mirroring and to do that would be to make a very different game. But archtype wide tools, tactics, skills already exist, and they already provide a modicum of balance that we can directly see in game. Why not expand that out and see what happens? Is it too much to see some tweaks made to explosive shots to make it a more effective tool? Could similar changes not be done to melee, and casters as well?

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lefze
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Posts: 863

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#9 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:44 pm
lefze wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 pm
Spoiler:
Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:01 am PRDPS have the weakest AoE morales atm.

The shared M2 for dps is UF which was nerfed and now returned as an anti taunt that doesn't really have a place outside of 6 man. The core M3 explosive shots is weak, while not entirely bad, it forces ability use to trigger the damage which makes it weaker than other options, and the core M4 hail of doom is simply trash that does less damage than raze. Mirroring the current SW M2 outsider patrol and moving it to 3 and then buff explosive shots to 600 from 300 and putting at as core M4 could smooth out the core morales.
They do have the weakest archetype AoE damage morales yes, but class specifics are either in-line or better than most other morales and even the single best AoE morale is on one of the PRDPS. The lack of AoE morales on some classes stem from the fact they have access to ulitlity/defensive stuff instead, or simply that another class in the faction covers it.

And then comes the question, are you willing to trade some of the defensive/utility morales present in the place of damage morales to gain access to these? Mirroring of morales can't be done on a one for for nothing basis, not even with the Archetype morales.

And this isn't tied to a single archetype or a single class. Let's say all physical rpds get access to AoE morales. How do you compensate? Do you give all the class specific morales the classes that gained a morale had access to to all other classes? Do you flat out remove the previous morales? And after that you have to look at the overall amount and speed at which the other classes in the factions get morales. Now there are more morales in play on both sides, do you take away Ruin and Destruction+Great Fang?

At the end of the day the only possible solution once you start messing with the morales like this is that you have to perfectly mirror absolutely every morale to both sides. Then what do you do about moralepumps and moraledrains? Well, you have to either remove those or mirror them aswell. And well, At that point the drains need to be on classes that are equally valuable in warbands for both sides, so you gotta do some more mirroring to fit it in to the new game where everyone has all morales. Or do you remove the moraledrains? Well damn, selfpumps still assure certain classes get morales faster than others, so moraledrains are necessary. so what now? Well obviously have to get rid of all moralepumps aswell, or mirror these, and this goes for both selfpumps and AM/Shammy pumps.

After that we have most of it mirrored, but ****, how do we balance the rest of the game? Now we have both sides decked out with AoE morales on all classes, so why is one side still getting shat on? Oh that's it, one side has the AP to keep up the pressure indefinetly, and the tools to supress the AP of the other side to a point where in prolonged engagements the only thing being put put out is autos and morales. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Guess we have to mirror RP and Zeally a bit, and consider deleting Mara from the game completely.

The point is that morales can't be toyed with like this, you either leave it as it is, take the effort to rebalance the whole game, or start messing with things to a point where everything becomes a complete and utter clusterfuck that no one is gonna bother touching ever again. Simply put, even 1200 damage AoE morales can't be handed out as if they belong on every class. In fact no morales can be handed out freely without affecting the whole design of certain classes and specs.
To be honest with you I don't see a full review of morale to morale of every career in the game as being possible due to the time it would take.

But adjusting the core archtype morals to a slightly more functional set is a more achievable goal that has the benefit of being balanced cross faction. And by no means should 1200 AoE be the model of how it is done. That was merely an easy example. There are other ways of doing it. Personally I prefer raze type abilities over instants for this since they are what I feel to be a good balance between damage, and counter ability.

Also I am not saying that this is a perfect solution to the problems, and just giving SH or Engi a 1200 at M2 or M3 does nothing to really address the fact that BW will still simply do a better job thanks to morale pump. It also doesn't address the issues of pumps and drains, or that fact that there are simply career specific morales that are better than what the core would offer.
[/spoiler]

But it gives a core set of tools to allow those careers to at least try to participate and I think raze is a good example of such a tool. If you choose to try to build a lot of Engi's and SL's into a warband you are punished for it compared to if you went for BW's instead. If you choose to go for choppas / SH's you are equally punished for it. But when it comes to tanks and healers that is not exactly the case. All tanks can bring raze, all healers FM. Making a few small changes, adding a morale or changing a morale to be more function could do that and be a more modular solution.

As an engi I dislike the utility argument since utility doesn't stack well in WB you only need so many utility classes, a dps slot is a dps slot and that is the heart of the matter. I am not in some delusional state where I think everyone should be equally good at everything, a BW should do more damage than an engi, and having differences is not necessarily bad, but options should exist to try. The gap can be lowered to help promote more WB diversity, I disagree with the notion that any 1 career should dominate a WB makeup in an organized setting, and in an unorganized setting all should have viable options to fight back with.

The factions and careers are too different for total mirroring and to do that would be to make a very different game. But archtype wide tools, tactics, skills already exist, and they already provide a modicum of balance that we can directly see in game. Why not expand that out and see what happens? Is it too much to see some tweaks made to explosive shots to make it a more effective tool? Could similar changes not be done to melee, and casters as well?
We'z fightin betta/Unleashed power for example, did you ever hear of anyone using those? Let's say in coordination with Explosive Shots on top of a razebomb? I bet you didn't, because again, the reason everyone keeps complaining about being left out of this or that is becasuse they don't use what it is given to them. Slayer and Choppa DO have morales, which are perfectly reachable rigth now, especially with a pumps. And yes, I know 100% that they have been used (specifically before the moralerate was buffed even). While I do agree explosive shots is a bit eh, it's certainly not a horrible morale if coordinated well. SH has the single best morale in the game in Path of big Shooting.

And you can dislike the utility argument all you want to, it doesn't change the fact that it has to be dealt with. And I would prefer the utility being buffed/tweaked into relevance rather than being spread out onto all classes/removed. There is potential to solve these problems without breaking the natural order. As for one class dominating warband make ups, the only offender in this regard is BW, and this isn't something that should be fixed by remaking the morales instead of looking at BW specifically.

And again the major point in my rant is that you can't mess around with giving morales to classes that shouldn't have them without it requiring major reworks and mirroring stuff that shouldn't be mirrored. This includes making certain morales into Archetype morales. The game has existing designs that makes this a tricky, extensive and extremely time consuming process if you don't stay inside the borders already set.

Tl;dr: Adjusting archetype morales to give everyone damage morales isn't gonna be balanced cross faction. Adjusting both class and archetype morales without breaking the current concept might work.
Rip Phalanx

User avatar
Karast
Posts: 554

Re: Archtype Morales: Physical Ranged

Post#10 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:19 am

Spoiler:
lefze wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:33 pm
Karast wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:44 pm
lefze wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 pm

They do have the weakest archetype AoE damage morales yes, but class specifics are either in-line or better than most other morales and even the single best AoE morale is on one of the PRDPS. The lack of AoE morales on some classes stem from the fact they have access to ulitlity/defensive stuff instead, or simply that another class in the faction covers it.

And then comes the question, are you willing to trade some of the defensive/utility morales present in the place of damage morales to gain access to these? Mirroring of morales can't be done on a one for for nothing basis, not even with the Archetype morales.

And this isn't tied to a single archetype or a single class. Let's say all physical rpds get access to AoE morales. How do you compensate? Do you give all the class specific morales the classes that gained a morale had access to to all other classes? Do you flat out remove the previous morales? And after that you have to look at the overall amount and speed at which the other classes in the factions get morales. Now there are more morales in play on both sides, do you take away Ruin and Destruction+Great Fang?

At the end of the day the only possible solution once you start messing with the morales like this is that you have to perfectly mirror absolutely every morale to both sides. Then what do you do about moralepumps and moraledrains? Well, you have to either remove those or mirror them aswell. And well, At that point the drains need to be on classes that are equally valuable in warbands for both sides, so you gotta do some more mirroring to fit it in to the new game where everyone has all morales. Or do you remove the moraledrains? Well damn, selfpumps still assure certain classes get morales faster than others, so moraledrains are necessary. so what now? Well obviously have to get rid of all moralepumps aswell, or mirror these, and this goes for both selfpumps and AM/Shammy pumps.

After that we have most of it mirrored, but ****, how do we balance the rest of the game? Now we have both sides decked out with AoE morales on all classes, so why is one side still getting shat on? Oh that's it, one side has the AP to keep up the pressure indefinetly, and the tools to supress the AP of the other side to a point where in prolonged engagements the only thing being put put out is autos and morales. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Guess we have to mirror RP and Zeally a bit, and consider deleting Mara from the game completely.

The point is that morales can't be toyed with like this, you either leave it as it is, take the effort to rebalance the whole game, or start messing with things to a point where everything becomes a complete and utter clusterfuck that no one is gonna bother touching ever again. Simply put, even 1200 damage AoE morales can't be handed out as if they belong on every class. In fact no morales can be handed out freely without affecting the whole design of certain classes and specs.
To be honest with you I don't see a full review of morale to morale of every career in the game as being possible due to the time it would take.

But adjusting the core archtype morals to a slightly more functional set is a more achievable goal that has the benefit of being balanced cross faction. And by no means should 1200 AoE be the model of how it is done. That was merely an easy example. There are other ways of doing it. Personally I prefer raze type abilities over instants for this since they are what I feel to be a good balance between damage, and counter ability.

Also I am not saying that this is a perfect solution to the problems, and just giving SH or Engi a 1200 at M2 or M3 does nothing to really address the fact that BW will still simply do a better job thanks to morale pump. It also doesn't address the issues of pumps and drains, or that fact that there are simply career specific morales that are better than what the core would offer.

But it gives a core set of tools to allow those careers to at least try to participate and I think raze is a good example of such a tool. If you choose to try to build a lot of Engi's and SL's into a warband you are punished for it compared to if you went for BW's instead. If you choose to go for choppas / SH's you are equally punished for it. But when it comes to tanks and healers that is not exactly the case. All tanks can bring raze, all healers FM. Making a few small changes, adding a morale or changing a morale to be more function could do that and be a more modular solution.

As an engi I dislike the utility argument since utility doesn't stack well in WB you only need so many utility classes, a dps slot is a dps slot and that is the heart of the matter. I am not in some delusional state where I think everyone should be equally good at everything, a BW should do more damage than an engi, and having differences is not necessarily bad, but options should exist to try. The gap can be lowered to help promote more WB diversity, I disagree with the notion that any 1 career should dominate a WB makeup in an organized setting, and in an unorganized setting all should have viable options to fight back with.

The factions and careers are too different for total mirroring and to do that would be to make a very different game. But archtype wide tools, tactics, skills already exist, and they already provide a modicum of balance that we can directly see in game. Why not expand that out and see what happens? Is it too much to see some tweaks made to explosive shots to make it a more effective tool? Could similar changes not be done to melee, and casters as well?
We'z fightin betta/Unleashed power for example, did you ever hear of anyone using those? Let's say in coordination with Explosive Shots on top of a razebomb? I bet you didn't, because again, the reason everyone keeps complaining about being left out of this or that is becasuse they don't use what it is given to them. Slayer and Choppa DO have morales, which are perfectly reachable rigth now, especially with a pumps. And yes, I know 100% that they have been used (specifically before the moralerate was buffed even). While I do agree explosive shots is a bit eh, it's certainly not a horrible morale if coordinated well. SH has the single best morale in the game in Path of big Shooting.

And you can dislike the utility argument all you want to, it doesn't change the fact that it has to be dealt with. And I would prefer the utility being buffed/tweaked into relevance rather than being spread out onto all classes/removed. There is potential to solve these problems without breaking the natural order. As for one class dominating warband make ups, the only offender in this regard is BW, and this isn't something that should be fixed by remaking the morales instead of looking at BW specifically.

And again the major point in my rant is that you can't mess around with giving morales to classes that shouldn't have them without it requiring major reworks and mirroring stuff that shouldn't be mirrored. This includes making certain morales into Archetype morales. The game has existing designs that makes this a tricky, extensive and extremely time consuming process if you don't stay inside the borders already set.

Tl;dr: Adjusting archetype morales to give everyone damage morales isn't gonna be balanced cross faction. Adjusting both class and archetype morales without breaking the current concept might work.
You kinda keep side stepping the main point of this thread though. Putting aside class specific morales, are the core archtype abilities up to snuff? That is where this is focused. Are the core morales functional and desire able. Making sure the shared core abilities are polished viable options first, would make it much easier to then go through class morales later on.

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