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[Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

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Tesq
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#11 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:21 am

Edited per peter request

Please amend your first post with this information instead of making a new comment. - ptp3
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sigimund
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#12 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:00 am

Engineer 40/50. Grenadier 4lyf with some rifleman experience. I'm not meta enough for 6v6 but this dwarf does everything else.

Enjoying the new approach. I am glad this issue is being looked at and would be quite interested to test this tactic. However I do have certain reservations.

Positives:
  • Buffs a lackluster tactic.
  • Addresses a real concern of warband engis while still honouring the mechanic.
  • It's more creative than Loner.
Negatives:
  • Too much overlap with two better tactics. Well Oiled Machine (insta-summon) is still mandatory in the description of the proposal. On live Extra Ammo (AP aura) was far superior to Bandolier and last night's target dummy tests (artificially favouring Bandolier due to pure grenade spam) proved to me that this was still the case.
  • Costs another tactic slot. Not so bad if you already took an AP tactic, pity that it now has to be this AP tactic.
  • Doesn't properly target what I see as the real mobility issue. Mobile RvR engagements start off mounted with no turret. This change does nothing for this early stage of the fight. If one side breaks and you then push/retreat long distances on foot only then do you start to benefit from Redeploy with lower CD. Bombardment turret already lets you run further before you lose stacks. I've tried to keep track of when it would have helped the last couple of nights and tbh it's hard without the real thing to test but my feeling is "not useless, not game-changing either."
Sidenote: Grenadiers use gun turret a lot in RvR. All three turrets are situationally important. Being able to boost range is especially important if your spec only reaches skirmish distance.

Since you are asking for counter-proposals, how about instead of cutting the Redeploy CD you make it build Improvised Upgrade stacks faster? Helps get into the fight quicker. Helps maintain stacks -- you currently only drop 4 if you build a turret of the same type so you still experience a dip but you would recover your stack quickly. In short, helps both ends of this RvR mobility issue. Could limit it to only having this effect with Bombardment turrets or only turrets that are not Gun/Pinkie. Redeploy would continue to function as it does now, low AP mobility option that does not cost 4 stacks.

(If you really want me to change the tactics I have been using for years you'll tack this effect onto Extra Ammo or convert the Bandolier AP discount into a self-only version of Extra Ammo but I am not this lucky :D ).

nibbles
Posts: 79

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#13 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:06 am

1. Do you play the class in question?

Yes Magus 40-rr66

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Have played engi 40

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

play organized orvr wb with comms
play within 'organized' orvr pugs

trees: changing 13point, daemonology 9

4. Your feedback

Removal of pink/gun is not a good idea as this is necessary in siege oil / clearing RDPS from walls situations etc. for one example.

As for the buff: Move this away from the player and place directly onto the turret's; so it continues to build with turret and emits this to the player when they are in range, and once redeploy casts, the build is at same state.

Reduce the AP cost and CD of redeploy as they are core abilities and not any particular tree.

Within Flamer range; (same with engi turret) cast changing abilities whilst moving is a good idea and allows these two to keep up with mobile wb's / groups.


edit: have restructured in accordance to guidelines
Last edited by nibbles on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Darks63
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#14 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:00 pm

Spoiler:
dansari wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:16 am
Darks63 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:48 am
Got 40/40+ magus and engineer and had higher rr of both on live.

All this proposal does is force a tactic starved architype to be more so than ever while still tying it to mechanic which forces it out of the mobility meta. Also lowering the CD of Resummon/Redeploy doesn't address that the ability itself costs 50 ap and since it is core the ap reduction wont affect that.

Also locking out the Gun/Pink removes an option for people to boost their range in certain circumstances.

A few side questions if you will: Why continue to try to expand on the bandaid solution that the pet buff was on live? why not scrap them entirely and try to come up with a mechanic that actually works?
What would you suggest for a mechanic that works?
One idea I had which I brought up in discord to you awhile back was possibly allowing the pet to be mobile with the player with the restriction that it stays at you side no chasing like the squig. Add a limber/unlimber mechanic that changes how the turret buff works.
While not exactly your fault for replying to a balance mod, it would be appreciated if you could instead amend your first post with your suggestion above, so as to keep this topic clean and concise. - PTP3
Tourist SW 40/50+<Zaxxed> Discotec 40/40+<IRONIC>

Former Pragg/Badlands Destro Iron Rock/Badlands Order player.

Orontes
Posts: 133

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#15 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:30 pm

1. Do you play the class in question?

RR 75+ magus
RR 65+ Engi

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Play both

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Play both in Scens. and RoR/

Magus: Havoc/Deamonology
Engi: Riflemen/Tinkerer


4. Your feedback

Per magus: Applying the changes to Daemonic Pack will be really had for a Changing Magus to benefit from. It's difficult to consider viable Changing focused builds from this proposal.

Restricting the Pink Horror and Gun Turret will weaken Changing magi and Grenadier Engi as the extra range is often needed.

(as an aside, and if you will pardon the following as I don't come to the forums, but maybe once a week: I actually spend time playing the game. Reducing the resummons on pets is nice, but Changing/Grenadier suffer because they their damage is rubbish. Too much of their damage is fluff AOE that can be dismissed by and large. They need an ability to have damage concentrate. There is a poll put forward the other week on reducing the cooldown on Firestorm with the tactics Wild Changing. I didn't vote on this as it was only open three days, and I didn't even visit the forums during that timeframe. I support that change and think it would help the spec. by adding pressure damage. Please consider this a vote for such. Firestorm has practically vanished from the field of play since Azarael's (sp) skill tree ability swap, where he was unaware of the tactic cooldown and has made Havoc stronger and Changing weaker. Apologies)
Last edited by Orontes on Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#16 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:35 pm

I have an engi on ror but only rr30. My experience is primarily solo scs and pve because the guild I was in did not need engis in warbands and their 6 man viability was limited at the time.

I echo the concerns many engis and magi have brought up thus far in the thread. I am offering a counter-proposal in the same spirit as the OP while addressing some of the issues brought up.

Rather than modifying an existing tactic we add a cooldown. Cooldown reads:

=====

Engi:
You use all the pieces of your gun turret to generate 4 stacks of improvised weapons. If you have an active gun turret, it is destroyed. Does not destroy other active turrets. You cannot build a gun turret for 15s. 20s cooldown.

Magus:
You absorb the demonic spirit of your pink horror to generate 4 stacks of unholy energy. If you have an active pink horror, it dies horribly. Does not kill other active horrors. You cannot summon a pink horror for 15s. 20s cooldown.

=====
Now if you need to move and redeploy/resummon is on cooldown, you could summon the pet like normal and lose 4 mechanic, then use this ability to regain the 4 mechanic. By killing and restricting access to left tree turret/horror, we keep the original intent of not giving those specs additional mobility. The 20s cooldown with 20s cooldown of reploy/resummon would still allow for position changing every 10s. Since this is an ability and not a modified tactic, it would not impact anyone who wishes to use ranged pets and one of the modified tactics. Now you consciously are choosing to go without access to the ranged pet in favor of more mobility. The fact that it no longer requires a tactic to get the effect is mitigated by the fact that it now requires a GCD.

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Nidwin
Posts: 621

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#17 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:42 pm

Spoiler:
Darks63 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:00 pm
One idea I had which I brought up in discord to you awhile back was possibly allowing the pet to be mobile with the player with the restriction that it stays at you side no chasing like the squig. Add a limber/unlimber mechanic that changes how the turret buff works.
No.
We need a malus to our 40% damage increase and in our case it's a restriction in our mobility.

Sorc's have to build up Dark Magic, we only have to be patient while doing whatever we want.
Sorc's have to build up Dark Magic for increased critical rate, we have tactics.
Sorc's Dark Magic decreases overtime, our 40% damage bonus decreases through mobility.
Sorc's have backlash and we have our pet taking damage and possibly die.

I've the impression that some folks want flamer's mobility, pinky's range and blueuette's increased survival all in one.
Again: this is not a discussion. Please amend your first posts with any additional comments you have to make. We want the feedback section to be clear and concise. - PTP3
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#18 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:03 pm

I have an engi 40/39

How about an Engi loner tactic? No turret in return for a lesser buff, say half thst a turet gives?
Alea iacta est

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ragafury
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#19 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:01 pm

Spoiler:
Fallenkezef wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:03 pm
I have an engi 40/39

How about an Engi loner tactic? No turret in return for a lesser buff, say half thst a turet gives?
Since I don't want to derail the proposal nor moderate it I will just leave this thought here under your post and selfspoiler. :)

classes should not be altered to "ah just remove the pet and it's viable for largescale".
This can't be the right approach to keep the class DNA intact, which yali was speaking of.
it's a very comfortable but lazy method. ;)

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bulgy70
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#20 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:21 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes. Magus Daemonology (level 30) will become my main


2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?
No

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Was Daemonology Magus on live rr80 plus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HARhCJiPoqM

4. Your feedback
The biggest issue with both the Magus and Engineer is being tide down by daemons / turrets, especially if you are Daemonology or Tinkerer spec. The other paths don't have this issue,

Daemonic pack
It would be far better if it was a straight toughness buff, without having to deploy a daemon. It would let the Magus have more freedom without the constraints of the daemon, this would also work for the Engineers with Tracer Rounds.

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