DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

[Nidwin]

Spoiler:

Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.

Just curious but can you please elaborate on your backline healer concept for DoK.

Any dok/wp that is specced for healing (1st is focused on it and book/chalice is required) and stays in backline healing his party who fight enemies in the meantime. Basically, they only range heal.

I wasn't sure so I had to ask.
Thanks.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.

Just curious but can you please elaborate on your backline healer concept for DoK.

Any dok/wp that is specced for healing (1st is focused on it and book/chalice is required) and stays in backline healing his party who fight enemies in the meantime. Basically, they only range heal.

If you play those classes like that you end up failing. Both DoK and WP are required to be in close range to have a decent resource regeneration. The healing spec is hybdrid aswell buth with 0 focus on dealing any lethal damage.

A melee healing spec would require to be atleast 50% dps focus or there would be no reason to play one. It's always gonna be a dps replacement, or as 3d healer.
They CANT replace a healer. Ranged dps would completly destroy a team bringin melee healer as primary healer.

[Drozen]

Good day,

I have another Idea to put on the table.
(:

I was wondering if it is possible to create weapons that give benefit to the dps aspect of a DoK/WP but also lower the healing of them and higher the cooldown/cast time of certain healer abilities.

Lets say just as an example: a WP 2h hammer with +20 dps, more strengh, more weapon skill, +5% parry, more initiative, 7% dmg proc, but then -20% healing, +3 sec on CD and cast time of rezz and cleanse.

Like I said, just an example.. values might be exagerated. Many ways to think of what limits to put on the user wielding such a weapon.

I also wonder if it is possible to make such a weapon useable only with a certain amount of points spend in a specific tree so you block the idea of insane hybrids.

I think it would be way more easy to tweak such weapons then tweak skills and trees. Also it would give the players more freedom to play as they like to do it: Hybrid, Heal, DPS.

Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.

I still dont understand where this is coming from, have you really gotten so many ppl complaining about a broken torture/wrath tree? Or is this a one person project and ide'a? I do understand to some extent what aza wanted to change and agreed to some extent to that cuz the convertion of stats would fix alot of the poor stats on diffrent gear set's etc(having both str & wp on the same item or set bonuses). (now with this rant on to the next thing..)

To me it sounds you gonna change it to what it is today... With the diffrence of taking away the Wrath tree's only way of survivabilty (and i may add if you gonna survive in a wrath specc you better run with a guard already..) . The description you gave there is exactly what Salvation does today, 100% backline healer. Grace/salv(or wrath) is also just that, minimal dmg but can put out good healing imo(this is my most personal boring lackluster specc there is btw). So why not just simply add some damage (not healing) in the wrath specc and mission will be accomplished, your squishy as hell in wrath.One KD or disarm can be your death as wrath (as "dps" specced geared.

I really dont understand a re-work and changing (well two) classes that was meant to be hybrids from the start.

Add changes to the Grace/Salv specc; down the dmg abit but up the healing (with this said i do think all is fine today here)

Add changes to Wrath; up the pure dmg while maintaning (99% as the are today) the lifetaps (SR & DA) to keep you up like it is now(and no, not to the point as a pure dps class CUZ WE WHERE NEVER MEANT TO BE ONE)

And also, all of this goes for DoK's to. if your gonna up Wp's dmg(changing the wrath/torture tree) you should do the same with DoK's the same procent, if not and Wp's land on the same dmg output as a DoK then they should have equal healing capabilties. Fair is fair.

Edit; clearified the stats conversion abit.

[Tesq]

stats conversion and killing of book/chalice was bad , there is no need for stats conversions, when melee heals should just dont be str based in first place but on willp and heal crit.

i jsut hope these 2 things dont get back because they indirectly killed a lot of builds options and made of course classes op with a guard on..

[Drys]

A melee healing spec would require to be atleast 50% dps focus or there would be no reason to play one. It's always gonna be a dps replacement, or as 3d healer.
They CANT replace a healer. Ranged dps would completly destroy a team bringin melee healer as primary healer.

In my opinion, this is exactly what this survey is intended to understand. Does the community want DOK/WP to be a melee healer that IS a viable healer. The follow-up question would be how to do that in a way that doesn't make a pure dps DOK/WP isn't op.

[Bozzax]

If you havent figured it out yet the proposed dps specialization equals moving towards being a slayer/choppa-light in regards to dps output and being group dependent (guard and healers).

Hybrid (what we have) is less dps and more self sustainability.

In regards to what I think is not working: Wrath DPS is lackluster and doesn't put out enough damage to warrant taking them over any other DPS class. I believe that the damage could be increased - but!!! - at the cost of reducing significantly their lifetap potential (and possibly other utility).

To quote Peter

E1 Note: A CHP/SLY can run a bit of self heals with tactics + channel (sux I’ve tested it a lot)

E2: I do share the view that dps WP lags behind a tad but not for the same reasons then most

[peterthepan3]

A melee healing spec would require to be atleast 50% dps focus or there would be no reason to play one. It's always gonna be a dps replacement, or as 3d healer.
They CANT replace a healer. Ranged dps would completly destroy a team bringin melee healer as primary healer.

In my opinion, this is exactly what this survey is intended to understand. Does the community want DOK/WP to be a melee healer that IS a viable healer. The follow-up question would be how to do that in a way that doesn't make a pure dps DOK/WP isn't op.

Pretty much nailed it.

Also: there seem to be a lot of comments talking about vested interests and/or hidden agendas coming into play; it is simply not the case. There is no competition on the server: you can make any comp work right now against the competition on both sides (for the most part) - including Wrath WP. That isn't what has prompted the discussion; the discussion was prompted after questions arose pertaining to hybrid vs purist 'roles' within PvP, and we wanted to get the community's views on this. Nothing more, nothing less.

The questions are simply: a) should wrath/torture function as a DPS with severely reduced healing/utility/survivability?: b) should grace/sacrifice be able to function as a healer (not a 3rd-healer-quasi-dps) but with reduced damage? There are no lines to read between.

[Drozen]

I do understand what they are proposing(if it was directed towards me?), making it a dps class if you go wrath with what i assume your likeness with the self healf (sl/Choppa) kinda. But i dont understand WHY. it was made not to be a dps, that is why it's called a hybrid. But sure, since it's a 2h class i to would enjoy bursting down ppl within 2sec like a insane WL can and have a self heal.

And yes, i have read what he wrote about wrath beeing lackluster in dps (to some extent i agree, but still we can kill stuff pretty fast. And no it's not from a 6v6 prespective cuz the generall mass of ppl dont play that)... Compared to a dps yes, cuz we should not take the place of a dps cuz we are not a dps class.

[Nidwin]

I still don't see the need for "specialisation", even if most voters seem to want it.

This would also require a huge effort on devl side as all healer skills would have to be flagged book/chalice only and all dps skills flagged 2-hander/double-sword for core/mastery/morales. This would also screw up healer mechanics because of (DoK) AP vs Soul Essance and it's ressource management. And let's not begin how to manage and implement the half and half part of the specialisation.

And what are we going to truly achieve?
Every side has already 3 tanks that can go mdps and 3 standard mdps with "optional" Magus-SH/Engie-SW as possible mdps hybrids.

[madrocks]

Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.

I am very happy you are this transparent about the plans you guys have for this class.
Of course I am slightly disappointed you so bluntly throwed my idea with the weapons into the garbage can. (:


However, back to the matter at hand again..
You know a DoK/WP Healer can not stand in the backline (of course depending what you mean by backline)
100 ft group heal, 30ft aoe heal, melee based silence, cripple and despell makes a good DoK stand right behind the tank or even infront of him.

I think you also know that the utility I just mentioned are the base of good DoK/WP healer.
You have to be in the mess with a certain amount of str/weapon/armor/willpower skill to: survive, land a silence/cripple on key targets and heal your party to make a battle succed in your favor.
It is the concept of a melee healer and I am sure you understand that players play it like that because they want to do it this way.
A certain kind of healer must commit into close combat otherwise the battle will rage forever as tank lines can be healed endlessly from the back.
Do not underestimate the concept of this. DoK/WP must be in there, they must be tested and one of them must fail.
You can not give a DoK/WP the choice to stand in the back and heal like a god.
I can only repeat myself, do you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake?

Numbers and experience acquired through 6vs6 can not give you a full view of the balance situation (if that is the case).
Every realm has 12 classes to play; only if you run tests putting those classes geared in a direct contrast to each other you will gain numbers that are accurate and possibly upscaleable to RvR. 12vs12 is what you have to go for.

But hey, you gotta know what you are doing and ultimately understand the consequences that will follow those changes.
I will of course respect those changes and .. find a way tha will fit my playstyle.
Unbalance is not necessary created by the class but by the player.
Gear, abilities and dps/heal is not the only factor; PvP is about timing, forseeing you opponents move and players that login.