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DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

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Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

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lefze
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Posts: 861

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#101 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:37 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm
Nidwin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm
Small tweaks lefze?

You mean a mdps that can also rez, full group cleanse, 1800 M1 heal, group heal, HoT a volonté, aoe punt, M3 4.5 group shield, ..., but that's may be want you expect by saying, just some small tweaks please?
Have to correct you on this (lest people take it for gospel): in Torture/Wrath specs, you can not group cleanse, you can not group shield, you can not group casted heal. AoE punt is accessible to every other healer class, SH, IB, SM & BO. The m3 group shield sorta offsets the fact that they have no M1/M2 damage morales.
It's like seeing a hobo with a penny and wondering why he doesn't have a house, he has money afterall.

The fact that you still have access to the core heals doesn't mean they have any kind of real value. Speccing for party HoT and bubble in a dps spec is shooting your whole party in the foot. No value, waste of a perfectly good GCD. Taking party cleanse gimps you beyond belief. AoE punt? Why not just have one of my tanks do it, when the moment comes for it to actually not just be free immunity. Heal M1 is kinda okay, would personally have it only castable on self in dps spec. M3 is perfectly fine.

Issues arise with TE (in some environments and to some degree your ability to heal others with Rend Soul. It's a matter of separating the middle and right side specs a bit, easily doable with a tactic tweak or two, and possibly making the mechanic count for more. Other larger measures can be taken, but the essence of what we want can be accomplished quite easily.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#102 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:38 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:17 pm
peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:05 pm
@Drozz
That still isn't a clearcut role (which is the issue for circa-58% anyway!). If the class hasn't got a clearcut role/doesn't perform as good as a pure healer or pure DPS, then you are doing your group a disservice by bringing one. I understand the jack of all trades argument (which is definitely a valid argument for the hybrid court).
58% of what?

Doesn’t mean jack .... wo looking at who (and what classes voted). Also do consider why ppl of diff classes vote for changing a class they possibly dont play.

Even If that would have been 58% of all active wp/docs on the server I’d still doubt it was great poll since most haven’t played melee seriously.
It was tongue in cheek. The poll part of the discussion is nowhere near as relevant for us as the actual written input.
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adamthelc
Posts: 633

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#103 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:38 am

The problem with keeping it a hybrid and increasing their damage is you are still going to be competing with actual damage for a spot.

Since they are going to add more than just damage I would worry there will be a tipping point. So at a point it would become much better than a regular damage and dps would no longer be a good choice for a spot. It would be very hard to find a sweet spot where you could say a dps and a hybrid are about equal for a spot.

I have no problem with hybrids, but I think they should be geared to be more casual in playstyle. If you push too much to make them competitive it would be very easy for them to become too good.

I personally dont want to see even more threads about how a hybrid is too strong.

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Nidwin
Posts: 621

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#104 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:45 am

peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm
Nidwin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm
Small tweaks lefze?

You mean a mdps that can also rez, full group cleanse, 1800 M1 heal, group heal, HoT a volonté, aoe punt, M3 4.5 group shield, ..., but that's may be want you expect by saying, just some small tweaks please?
Have to correct you on this (lest people take it for gospel): in Torture/Wrath specs, you can not group cleanse, you can not group shield, you can not group casted heal. AoE punt is accessible to every other healer class, SH, IB, SM & BO. The m3 group shield sorta offsets the fact that they have no M1/M2 damage morales.
My advice, do your homework first Peter before trying to correct me. :P (kidding)

Khaine's Withdrawal (Morale 2) full group cleanse. (One of the reasons DoK is meta in group play because it's morale 2 full group cleanse)
Khaine's Embrance group heal 1s cast. Core ability in Path of Dark Rites
Soul Infusion standard healers HoT insta-cast. DoK core ability
2 Flash heals on 0.5s cast. Core ability in Path of Dark Rites
Patch Wounds (single cleanse). DoK core ability
Stand, Coward (rezz). DoK core ability

You're fine with the M3 shield, your problem, not mine. Can I have that M3 4.5K group shield on my Magus too?

We're talking about a specialized dps DoK and not about a healer, aren't we Peter. So it's not ok or fine in my book and should not be "accessible to every other healer class" because it's not a healer but a melee dps. Can I have an aoe punt on my Magus too?

All full accessible to dps DoK -> and you want to up it's DPS to have it specialized. Just a bit of tweaking is going to become big devl work, at least in my book, with plenty of possible bugs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You want me to tell you the actual issue with dps DoK's. (don't care about the silly "We need more men" freggles and their DPS WP's)

It's simple -> "Curse of Kaine"
There's simply nothing in that tree (Path of Torture) worth to spent points into. Whatever theory crafters think or hope "Curse of Kaine" is crap as too expensive or in the wrong tree to have true value.

If I want to fluff dps and be usefull I would go for this

https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... ,4974,4975

As for eq/renown points/talis and pots that would be my personal taste.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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szejoza
Posts: 732

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#105 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:54 am

To my liking Dok/WP are getting way too much attention. Wasn't balance about getting every class viable in smallscale and wb environments? Cause as it stands right now DoK/WP fit both perfectly (not as dps spec ofc but still, they have their spots if they want and are one of the best AoE healers in game).

We got 11 pages of discussion on perfectly working classes, except for one spec, while there are classes out there suffering from not being viable in either smallscale or warband play no matter what spec they pick. Sorry but it's a waste of workforce and you should reconsider your so called unbiased view because as it is now all it is about is getting one spec tuned perfectly while leaving others to suffer.
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Nameless
Posts: 732

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#106 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:58 am

Devs removed cleansing winds because is too good for tanks and dps classes to have it and now u tell us that dok with true dps alike capabilities (not that it is not close to that even now) will keep his healers signature moves like cleanse and that is ok?
Mostly harmless

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Tesq
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#107 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:53 am

Nameless wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:58 am
Devs removed cleansing winds because is too good for tanks and dps classes to have it and now u tell us that dok with true dps alike capabilities (not that it is not close to that even now) will keep his healers signature moves like cleanse and that is ok?
Well the point should be if you wanna play dok/wp as melee then the FM m2 should be mandatory
As that allow the class to be a true melee and so the dmg counterpart of a off m2 should be elsewhere...like on dps mastery.....in this istance if that 15pt skill is sti there then is horrendously wrong in the snare immunity part...aka remove redundancy and dok wont have cleanse m2 .....
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#108 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:31 am

szejoza wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:54 am
Sorry but it's a waste of workforce and you should reconsider your so called unbiased view because as it is now all it is about is getting one spec tuned perfectly while leaving others to suffer.
Sorry but this is merely a discussion to ascertain people's thoughts/interpretations of the classes. We have a priority list that you can refer to if you are under the impression dok/wp is getting 'too much attention'. We do not want any class to be let 'to suffer', so again I refer you to our priority list which will all but alleviate these concerns you are having.

There is no bias, and it is does little but deter us from even trying to gather your thoughts when accusations of bias are thrown around so casually (with no proof, I might add).
Nameless wrote:Devs removed cleansing winds because is too good for tanks and dps classes to have it and now u tell us that dok with true dps alike capabilities (not that it is not close to that even now) will keep his healers signature moves like cleanse and that is ok?
Where did we say that a specialised DPS tree would 100% get to keep cleanse? While I don't think cleanse is very useful for DPS dok, and agree with Tesq re Focused Mind being a much better alternative, I don't see an issue with preventing dps spec from using it if it is deemed too powerful in the hands of a 'mdps' DOK. However, m3 shield and m2 cleanse exist currently because: a) the class is of the healer archetype; b) there is a distinct lack of any damaging morales on both the DOK and WP; c) there is nothing preventing Torture DOKs from using this morale. Don't get me wrong: a case could definitely be made to remove cleanse from a specialised DPS dok (as per OP: it would need to sacrifice some utility) - if deemed necessary by the community.
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Sinisterror
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#109 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:36 am

Give the convert to willpower str in wrath/torture covenants, give wp slow also, and make the covenants give dok 15% more damage on all skills and wp 20% more damage on all skills, 25 % less healing in all heals on all but rend soul/da heals you fully. Grace and other covenant would be like wp has the healing one, but it would heal 100% more and buffs your toughness and iniative for some amount and all heals would be 25% more effective but damage is 25% less, but melee heal skills still heal full amount of the damage.

Also give them 65 feet range slow skill on parry/dodge/disrupt, 10 sec cooldown and has 10 sec dot on the enemy and slows it like 10% for the 10 seconds, this damage would heal your party, not alot damage but like 200 a tick.
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peterthepan3
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#110 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:45 am

Nidwin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:45 am
peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm
Nidwin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm
Small tweaks lefze?

You mean a mdps that can also rez, full group cleanse, 1800 M1 heal, group heal, HoT a volonté, aoe punt, M3 4.5 group shield, ..., but that's may be want you expect by saying, just some small tweaks please?
Have to correct you on this (lest people take it for gospel): in Torture/Wrath specs, you can not group cleanse, you can not group shield, you can not group casted heal. AoE punt is accessible to every other healer class, SH, IB, SM & BO. The m3 group shield sorta offsets the fact that they have no M1/M2 damage morales.
My advice, do your homework first Peter before trying to correct me. :P (kidding)

Khaine's Withdrawal (Morale 2) full group cleanse. (One of the reasons DoK is meta in group play because it's morale 2 full group cleanse)
Khaine's Embrance group heal 1s cast. Core ability in Path of Dark Rites
Soul Infusion standard healers HoT insta-cast. DoK core ability
2 Flash heals on 0.5s cast. Core ability in Path of Dark Rites
Patch Wounds (single cleanse). DoK core ability
Stand, Coward (rezz). DoK core ability

You're fine with the M3 shield, your problem, not mine. Can I have that M3 4.5K group shield on my Magus too?

We're talking about a specialized dps DoK and not about a healer, aren't we Peter. So it's not ok or fine in my book and should not be "accessible to every other healer class" because it's not a healer but a melee dps. Can I have an aoe punt on my Magus too?

All full accessible to dps DoK -> and you want to up it's DPS to have it specialized. Just a bit of tweaking is going to become big devl work, at least in my book, with plenty of possible bugs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You want me to tell you the actual issue with dps DoK's. (don't care about the silly "We need more men" freggles and their DPS WP's)

It's simple -> "Curse of Kaine"
There's simply nothing in that tree (Path of Torture) worth to spent points into. Whatever theory crafters think or hope "Curse of Kaine" is crap as too expensive or in the wrong tree to have true value.

If I want to fluff dps and be usefull I would go for this

https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... ,4974,4975

As for eq/renown points/talis and pots that would be my personal taste.
1. You listed casted heals that would never be used by a dps dok due to Divine Fury and Murderous Intent. You never use casted heals.

2. Group Cleanse should only be usable by melee heal and heal specs if we were to go for Standardizing, if you ask me. Even so, Focused Mind is a much better alternative for DPS specs it allows you to put out the hurt more consistently; I can't envision a situation where I would take an M2 cleanse over Focused Mind (particularly when either Shaman or heal DOK can deal with cleanses - heal DOK bringing M2 cleanse himself).

3. Magus doesn't have such an absorb - but does have damaging m1-m3.

4. It isn't a mdps...hence why it has an abundance of said tools. As per OP: if Torture were to be made into a 'mdps'tree, it would need to lose utility and healing potential. I don't understand the point you're trying to make re aoe punt.

5. Your spec has no divine fury. It wouldn't even be dealing fluff damage; the damage would be on par with a level 10 Magus dot. You lose valuable heal and utility tactics. This spec would achieve nothing, and would be totally useless in any environment outside of...farming the level 1 mobs at Destruction starter zone? :P
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