DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

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Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

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Nidwin
Posts: 620

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#111 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:24 am

My point P2P is that if you don't restrict properly your specialized mdps DoK you're going to end with a Marauder that group heals, group cleanse M2, rez and so on because a lot of "healer" goodies are actually core. I'm not talking about JoeSixPack mdps DoK but about folks that know what they're doing and how to spec min/max group wise. The Marauders you want are not the full lol dps/critt glass canons, it's the other ones you want to have around.

Divine Fury is a choice between 400 damage or 500 damage while tanking all your healing done by 20%. The cullprint is that a lot of actual dps DoK's also slot Murderous Intent tanking their healing even more while not becoming WE number 1 like. I've never found out if it's truly 40% in total or more, anyway.

Anyone, except lol JoeSixPack, will slot Khaine's Withdrawal over anything else available. It's a no brainer in group/warband settings. Ask any decent WE if he/she would slot Web of Shadows or Khaine's Withdrawal in group or wb. Ask yourself Peter if you wouldn't slot KW on your Magus in group or wb.

And we can go down the list.
Would a WE wants to be able to rez folks?
Laurentz, would you like Khaine's Withdrawal on your deeps Zealot?
My dear friend Amatuer, what about a 4.5k M3 group shield mate?

Bugman's Best got nerfed because ..., but here we're talking about a possible bigger issue, just with a 1700 15s HoT spammable and core, based on Soul Essence and not on AP. And don't forget that you're going to boost the damage on your mdps DoK to make it viable.

I do understand and see the idea to have a specific dps tree for a DoK/WP, why not. But it's a damn lot of work to have everything properly split to avoid over the top builds.

On a side note.
The problem with Rend Soul is that it's a pain to switch defensive targets in those 3s without messing up or being efficient. I thought about having it on 6s (2s delay between every damage/healing tic) but yeah, it would be 6s. But pug killers are going to vote this down anyway, so ...
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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Nidwin
Posts: 620

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#112 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:48 am

Woops, that was another wall of text, sorry. I'm out of this discussion anyhow as I wrote what I had to say.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#113 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:50 am

Nidwin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:24 am
My point P2P is that if you don't restrict properly your specialized mdps DoK you're going to end with a Marauder that group heals, group cleanse M2, rez and so on because a lot of "healer" goodies are actually core. I'm not talking about JoeSixPack mdps DoK but about folks that know what they're doing and how to spec min/max group wise. The Marauders you want are not the full lol dps/critt glass canons, it's the other ones you want to have around.

I completely agree, but that has been made clear several times, i.e. that a specialist approach to the specs would mandate nerfing and/or removing certain forms of utility/healing - lest the classes overperform. If a Torture/Wrath player could do damage similar to that of a dedicated DPS, I would be the first to advocate removing its ability to heal the group via lifetaps - only being able to keep himself up via lifetaps as the WP/DOK doesn't have tools to disengage/survive like other MDPS (self-punt/GoM/Confusing Movements/core AoE detaunt). I would also suggest removing access to abilities like rez, as well as certain morales.

On the other hand, if we go for a hybrid approach then nothing really needs to be changed at all.
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Tesq
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Posts: 5346

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#114 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 pm

i would advocate that even going for an hybrid approach there are things which just dont make any sense like detaunt tactic being inside a mastery....it just promote in 1 case the same build over and over which would be used anyway due dmg prc or dmg prc + snare ......

some stuff is just wrong no matter the apprach you would use because is put there for no actual reason if not to fill a spot, ppl blindly refusing to aknowledge the problems are not doing the best for the classes nor the game. aka it matter few the approach when original desing is made with feets...(point mythic) and then adjusted/fix with monkey feets of other live new dev teams (monkey use foots better than humans but still are feets).
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Nameless
Posts: 732

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#115 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:39 pm

I speak about the normal, default healers cleanse which is strong enough so most dps and tanks dont have it at all or can use it from specific gear on 30 min cd and devs thought it is so strong for some archetypes so they removed cleansing winds.
Mostly harmless

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Timmitz
Posts: 43

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#116 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:28 pm

Traditionally the wp was always a much better healer and the dok a bit better dps. Basically we're looking at Exalted Defences vs Dual Wield, I have to add that in RoR i dont see the use of trying to dps on either.

Tbh i think that the anwser is in gear, in live we had more sets and better talismans and this made dps on a dok/wp strong if not godlike. Besides that the bugged lotd weaps/talis were the main factor to why the dok/wp were so strong in live. Bringing back the shoulder/gloves talismans might help.

Changing Exalted Defences into a small AA buff and shuffling the dps trees a bit without amending any other abilities should do the trick and fix the heal and dps imbalance between the 2. Anything other being done before kotbs/chosen rework is wasted effort. Pls start a thread on the kotbs/chosen too to at least see where that might go before you mess with this mirror so we reduce the chance to create abominations like the monstro wl.

Removing access to certain abilities/morales will result in people not wanting to play the spec anymore and decrease the viability to play it in a wb. If the dps dok will lose his res then a WE is better in a wb.
Timmitz (BO) Pestilentius (Chosen) Chronik (Marauder) Falaria (DoK) Poostainz (Shaman) Eadcheeze (SH) Shroomdeth (Choppa) Geriatricus (WP) Aleguts (Engi) Burnsie (BW)

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#117 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:07 pm

If a class only becomes semi-viable because of gear then that is indicative of a failing from the design department. This applies to any class. I'm not too sure how changing Exalted Defenses (a heal tactic) into an AA buff would help when you already have an AA tactic (Hastened Divinity). Could you expand on that if possible?

(Aside: with overpowered items/weapons from live, any class could appear viable when tested against pugs who were in RR40-60 gear. Let's not kid ourselves: the gear discrepancy on live was HUGE, as was the power imbalance that resulted from it).
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Timmitz
Posts: 43

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#118 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:56 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:07 pm
If a class only becomes semi-viable because of gear then that is indicative of a failing from the design department. This applies to any class. I'm not too sure how changing Exalted Defenses (a heal tactic) into an AA buff would help when you already have an AA tactic (Hastened Divinity). Could you expand on that if possible?

(Aside: with overpowered items/weapons from live, any class could appear viable when tested against pugs who were in RR40-60 gear. Let's not kid ourselves: the gear discrepancy on live was HUGE, as was the power imbalance that resulted from it).
Tbh I overlooked Hastened Divinity but it also doesnt work all the time.

Why change a heal tactic into a dps one? Simple: theres no balance without counterbalance; if you add on one side you need to take away from an other one. Otherwise the word bias will appear a lot in the comments and I hope this is viewed as something that should be avoided?
Timmitz (BO) Pestilentius (Chosen) Chronik (Marauder) Falaria (DoK) Poostainz (Shaman) Eadcheeze (SH) Shroomdeth (Choppa) Geriatricus (WP) Aleguts (Engi) Burnsie (BW)

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kkprfx
Posts: 167

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#119 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 pm

Timmitz wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:56 pm
peterthepan3 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:07 pm
If a class only becomes semi-viable because of gear then that is indicative of a failing from the design department. This applies to any class. I'm not too sure how changing Exalted Defenses (a heal tactic) into an AA buff would help when you already have an AA tactic (Hastened Divinity). Could you expand on that if possible?

(Aside: with overpowered items/weapons from live, any class could appear viable when tested against pugs who were in RR40-60 gear. Let's not kid ourselves: the gear discrepancy on live was HUGE, as was the power imbalance that resulted from it).
Tbh I overlooked Hastened Divinity but it also doesnt work all the time.

Why change a heal tactic into a dps one? Simple: theres no balance without counterbalance; if you add on one side you need to take away from an other one. Otherwise the word bias will appear a lot in the comments and I hope this is viewed as something that should be avoided?
AoE healdebuffs on destro are the counterplay.
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Mystry
Posts: 315

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#120 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:32 am

kkprfx wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 pm
AoE healdebuffs on destro are the counterplay.
What a coincidence, because Order doesn't have any aoe healdebuffs.

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