DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

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Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

Foltestik
Posts: 475

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#81 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:55 pm

madrocks wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:50 pm

I am very happy you are this transparent about the plans you guys have for this class.
Of course I am slightly disappointed you so bluntly throwed my idea with the weapons into the garbage can. (:


However, back to the matter at hand again..
You know a DoK/WP Healer can not stand in the backline (of course depending what you mean by backline)
100 ft group heal, 30ft aoe heal, melee based silence, cripple and despell makes a good DoK stand right behind the tank or even infront of him.

I think you also know that the utility I just mentioned are the base of good DoK/WP healer.
You have to be in the mess with a certain amount of str/weapon/armor/willpower skill to: survive, land a silence/cripple on key targets and heal your party to make a battle succed in your favor.
It is the concept of a melee healer and I am sure you understand that players play it like that because they want to do it this way.
A certain kind of healer must commit into close combat otherwise the battle will rage forever as tank lines can be healed endlessly from the back.
Do not underestimate the concept of this. DoK/WP must be in there, they must be tested and one of them must fail.
You can not give a DoK/WP the choice to stand in the back and heal like a god.
I can only repeat myself, do you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake?

Numbers and experience acquired through 6vs6 can not give you a full view of the balance situation (if that is the case).
Every realm has 12 classes to play; only if you run tests putting those classes geared in a direct contrast to each other you will gain numbers that are accurate and possibly upscaleable to RvR. 12vs12 is what you have to go for.

But hey, you gotta know what you are doing and ultimately understand the consequences that will follow those changes.
I will of course respect those changes and .. find a way tha will fit my playstyle.
Unbalance is not necessary created by the class but by the player.
Gear, abilities and dps/heal is not the only factor; PvP is about timing, forseeing you opponents move and players that login.
this concept never work, and im not sure if can work

becouse if you wanna stay in front line you need to have survability or you just die. if DoK/WP get survability to stay in front line and can heal like backline healers then it will be to much op and another healers will cry, and if he will not heal that much why you will take him as healer (you better take another one)
in party there is no spot for free guard for melee heal if you have 2 mDPS

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lefze
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#82 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:57 pm

Nidwin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:43 pm
I still don't see the need for "specialisation", even if most voters seem to want it.

This would also require a huge effort on devl side as all healer skills would have to be flagged book/chalice only and all dps skills flagged 2-hander/double-sword for core/mastery/morales. This would also screw up healer mechanics because of (DoK) AP vs Soul Essance and it's ressource management. And let's not begin how to manage and implement the half and half part of the specialisation.

And what are we going to truly achieve?
Every side has already 3 tanks that can go mdps and 3 standard mdps with "optional" Magus-SH/Engie-SW as possible mdps hybrids.
It's MUCH easier than that. It's literally just a matter of small tweaks.
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Mystry
Posts: 315

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#83 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 pm

Drozen wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm
I do understand what they are proposing(if it was directed towards me?), making it a dps class if you go wrath with what i assume your likeness with the self healf (sl/Choppa) kinda. But i dont understand WHY. it was made not to be a dps, that is why it's called a hybrid. But sure, since it's a 2h class i to would enjoy bursting down ppl within 2sec like a insane WL can and have a self heal.

And yes, i have read what he wrote about wrath beeing lackluster in dps (to some extent i agree, but still we can kill stuff pretty fast. And no it's not from a 6v6 prespective cuz the generall mass of ppl dont play that)... Compared to a dps yes, cuz we should not take the place of a dps cuz we are not a dps class.
Wrath can and should be a DPS class.There is no reason for it not to be. Even in its current state it's practically just a gimped DPS class since its self sustain is not strong enough to keep you alive beyond one rogue person hitting you. And even then it's iffy if that person knows what their doing and times their burst to a KD.

As Wrath, right now, you MUST slot Divine Fury and Fanaticism to get even the small impact that it currently has. This cripples your healing ability to be negligible, which is why I advocate for removing Wrath's ability to heal altogether in favor of severely increasing its damage potential. Wrath already cannot heal. Anyone who says otherwise has simply never played Wrath or is confusing a Grace WP for a Wrath WP. I see nothing but benefits in dropping the 200 hp heals/50 hp HoTs that suck up all your DF in favor of increased damage, which is what Wrath is meant to do, both mechanically and thematically, but can't because of shortsighted design choices by Mythic back in Live.

Lastly, I don't know why this is the case, but there seems to be a big stigma against those damn dirty 'hybrid' classes trying to DPS, usually coming from "Pure DPS" mains. I saw this for years in other games (COUGH RET PALADIN IN VANILLA WOW COUGH). I won't pretend to know why this is the case, but I suspect it has something to do with a worry about being replaced. DPS is more entertaining to play than healing for most people, that's just a fact, and if WP gets a viable DPS option via Wrath, you can bet that more people will be playing it, so my hypothesis is that DPS mains are worried that there will be less healers and more DPS for them to compete with over spots. This sort of reasoning is little other than short sighted and self-serving. To throw the common argument of "its what they were meant to do!" argument back, if WP was meant to heal and only heal then Wrath and Grace would not exist in the first place. Mythic's original intent was for WP to be either a front line healer (Grace) or a front line DPS (Wrath), which is why they are there in the first place. Simply because Mythic failed to develop a viable capability for the class to be either is not reason enough to relegate it to a backline healer role only.

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peterthepan3
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#84 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 pm

Drozen wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm


And yes, i have read what he wrote about wrath beeing lackluster in dps (to some extent i agree, but still we can kill stuff pretty fast. And no it's not from a 6v6 prespective cuz the generall mass of ppl dont play that)... Compared to a dps yes, cuz we should not take the place of a dps cuz we are not a dps class.
That just begs the question: what role should a Wrath WP fill if not DPS? Offheal? You have 2 healers already that should be putting out sufficient heals. Such questions prompted this discussion re hybrid/purist.
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Nidwin
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#85 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm

Small tweaks lefze?

You mean a mdps that can also rez, full group cleanse, 1800 M1 heal, group heal, HoT a volonté, aoe punt, M3 4.5 group shield, ..., but that's may be want you expect by saying, just some small tweaks please?
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siflisk
Posts: 18

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#86 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:25 pm

44/45 Grace WP
13/15 DoK

After playing and thinking some more:
Why not add willpower scaling to melee heals and tie it to having a 2h weapon? (adding wp scaling for 1h would just make salvation even better)
This would allow Sigmar's Radiance / Transfer Essence and Divine Assault / Rend Soul to increase in healing power while not increasing in damage.

Why not allow SR/TE and DA/RS heals to crit base on healing crit?
Same response as above.

Both of these would allow Grace WP/DoK to wear the more defensive RVR willpower sets and increase in healing power. (no need for willpower -> strength conversion) This would also lower WP/DoK damage while increasing their healing.



After playing DoK:
Sacrifice compared to Grace is completely lackluster.
Every Skill and Tactic in Grace gives the WP more survivability for being able to survive being teamed up on.

Horrifying Offering: Great ST 1v1 tactic for AP drain gain. How does this help a DoK survive melee better? WP gives +120 Toughness

Warding Strike: Transfer Essence will always heal, even on parry. How does this help a DoK survive melee better? WP gives +10% parry.

Gift of Khaine: My target is usually myself because I have to keep myself alive. Giving AP to teammates does nothing to help you survive better. WP gets Leading the Prayer, which is amazing for more survival.

Pillage Essence: Again, another 1v1 based AP drain tactic that does nothing for survivability. WP get a wounds buff and AP based group heal.

It feels like the whole sacrifice tree was built to be a 1v1 dueling tree and not a melee healing tree.

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Drozen
Posts: 105

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#87 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:25 pm

Mystry wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 pm
Drozen wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm
I do understand what they are proposing(if it was directed towards me?), making it a dps class if you go wrath with what i assume your likeness with the self healf (sl/Choppa) kinda. But i dont understand WHY. it was made not to be a dps, that is why it's called a hybrid. But sure, since it's a 2h class i to would enjoy bursting down ppl within 2sec like a insane WL can and have a self heal.

And yes, i have read what he wrote about wrath beeing lackluster in dps (to some extent i agree, but still we can kill stuff pretty fast. And no it's not from a 6v6 prespective cuz the generall mass of ppl dont play that)... Compared to a dps yes, cuz we should not take the place of a dps cuz we are not a dps class.
Wrath can and should be a DPS class.There is no reason for it not to be. Even in its current state it's practically just a gimped DPS class since its self sustain is not strong enough to keep you alive beyond one rogue person hitting you. And even then it's iffy if that person knows what their doing and times their burst to a KD.

As Wrath, right now, you MUST slot Divine Fury and Fanaticism to get even the small impact that it currently has. This cripples your healing ability to be negligible, which is why I advocate for removing Wrath's ability to heal altogether in favor of severely increasing its damage potential. Wrath already cannot heal. Anyone who says otherwise has simply never played Wrath or is confusing a Grace WP for a Wrath WP. I see nothing but benefits in dropping the 200 hp heals/50 hp HoTs that suck up all your DF in favor of increased damage, which is what Wrath is meant to do, both mechanically and thematically, but can't because of shortsighted design choices by Mythic back in Live.

Lastly, I don't know why this is the case, but there seems to be a big stigma against those damn dirty 'hybrid' classes trying to DPS, usually coming from "Pure DPS" mains. I saw this for years in other games (COUGH RET PALADIN IN VANILLA WOW COUGH). I won't pretend to know why this is the case, but I suspect it has something to do with a worry about being replaced. DPS is more entertaining to play than healing for most people, that's just a fact, and if WP gets a viable DPS option via Wrath, you can bet that more people will be playing it, so my hypothesis is that DPS mains are worried that there will be less healers and more DPS for them to compete with over spots. This sort of reasoning is little other than short sighted and self-serving. To throw the common argument of "its what they were meant to do!" argument back, if WP was meant to heal and only heal then Wrath and Grace would not exist in the first place. Mythic's original intent was for WP to be either a front line healer (Grace) or a front line DPS (Wrath), which is why they are there in the first place. Simply because Mythic failed to develop a viable capability for the class to be either is not reason enough to relegate it to a backline healer role only.
WIch i have stated before, one KD or disarm will more then likely result in your death unless you running with a guard wich i do feel is kinda mandatory in a wrath specc. And wrath have limited heal that is for sure and it's the way it should be, a DA/RS is some good spike healing.. mixing in the splash heals from SR/TE is ok. But no, they healing is not comparable with a Grace specced ofc, nor is the Graced specced wp close to the dmg from a wrath one.
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#88 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:31 pm

madrocks wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:50 pm
Spoiler:
Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
You know a DoK/WP Healer can not stand in the backline (of course depending what you mean by backline)
100 ft group heal, 30ft aoe heal, melee based silence, cripple and despell makes a good DoK stand right behind the tank or even infront of him.

You can not give a DoK/WP the choice to stand in the back and heal like a god.
I can only repeat myself, do you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake?

12vs12 is what you have to go for.
These are quite wrong, I’m afraid.

A good heal dok no matter in what environment 6v6, 24+ or zerg will never go into frontline and risk whole group. CC isn’t its job so silence and etc is invalid in serious environment. Otherwise, that silly move will kill a dok most likely because it will become target n.1. And believe me, it will be killed immediately, especially in zerg environment.

Heal doks are already have a choice to stay in the back and heal like a god. That’s what every WB and small scale healer dok actually does: stays in backline, as far away from enemies as possible but in range of effective healing. Look at any Warband or Group video you will never see a competent dok near its tank risking whole group/warband.

12v12 is not a scale to balance. 6v6 and mainly 24+v24+ are the scales because our main part of the game and the end game environment are full of massive numbers. RvR are about zerg and big numbers. Forts will have even more people fighting at the same time. No dok will survive there if it tries to go into melee. It will require a guard and attention of another healer, therefore, dps will lose the guard and die or have to retreat, stop dealing damage and the second healer will have to heal whole group alone while its partner will be in cc or close to death applying some questionable cc.
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peterthepan3
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#89 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm

Nidwin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm
Small tweaks lefze?

You mean a mdps that can also rez, full group cleanse, 1800 M1 heal, group heal, HoT a volonté, aoe punt, M3 4.5 group shield, ..., but that's may be want you expect by saying, just some small tweaks please?
Have to correct you on this (lest people take it for gospel): in Torture/Wrath specs, you can not group cleanse, you can not group shield, you can not group casted heal. AoE punt is accessible to every other healer class, SH, IB, SM & BO. The m3 group shield sorta offsets the fact that they have no M1/M2 damage morales.
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Drozen
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#90 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:54 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 pm
Drozen wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm


And yes, i have read what he wrote about wrath beeing lackluster in dps (to some extent i agree, but still we can kill stuff pretty fast. And no it's not from a 6v6 prespective cuz the generall mass of ppl dont play that)... Compared to a dps yes, cuz we should not take the place of a dps cuz we are not a dps class.
That just begs the question: what role should a Wrath WP fill if not DPS? Offheal? You have 2 healers already that should be putting out sufficient heals. Such questions prompted this discussion re hybrid/purist.
THought i had made that point already, but again; I do feel the state of the Wp & DoK is fine, sure minor tweaks here and there is ok, but as a whole there both fine.

(from a Wp perspective but same goes for DoK)

Role to play;

Salv = stand semi-meele and cast with hammer & book, so 99% heals

Grace = smallscale meele heals, adding a little extra dps while still having the heal spot, if situation allows this kind of setup.

(so basicly what we already have today with these two)

Wrath = think it's good where it is today(why do it need a specific clear roll? it can jump in as a extra dps with limited healing, but clearly not replace a pure dps) as explained, would like to add abit more burst to it(not amount of dmg out put, only more burst) since it do have a 2h wich i already have mentioned in a previus post in the suggestion forum and gone thrue some changes there. Othere then that i think it's good.

Wp/DoK can already be apart of every aspect of the game (Wich is really good) but they can not play every role as another pure-breed class can, is that really a bad thing?

I like the saying "Jack of all trades, master of F*** all" kinda fit's the the Wp/DoK, except for the group healing part in salv /dr we are a compromise since we are a hybrid class.
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