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[Sham] Gork's Barbs

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Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#11 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:19 pm

I'm against a lower cooldown and instead the secondary effect should be buffed, if necessary.
The most powerful/deadly debuff in competitive PvP should not exist on the healer archetype on such a low cooldown with a 100 feet range.
As all dedicated damage dealers have to spec 9 points as well for their 50% incoming healdebuffs (without any side effect) and the melee classes have a 5 feet range, a 10 second CD/100 feet range incoming HD is between the melee DD and the SH/SW healdebuffs in terms of usefulness to kill any healed target - on a healer class.
Maybe the ability seems bad if looked at alone, but it's not like that it supports the class in its healing/lifetap healing role and changes like that shouldn't be isolated viewed at, because they carry the danger to affect the whole "meta" balance.

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#12 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:31 pm

Luth wrote:I'm against a lower cooldown and instead the secondary effect should be buffed, if necessary.
The most powerful/deadly debuff in competitive PvP should not exist on the healer archetype on such a low cooldown with a 100 feet range.
RP/Zeal/Dok can effectively have a hd up 100% of the time on a target (Zeal can easily apply it to a whole group). AM has a 10s CD and he can easily mask it with 3 other dots. WP heal debuff is horrendous though.

Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#13 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:45 pm

Therefore the archmage one should be nerfed, though i didn't mention it directly (but i think from the oppinion shown in my post it was clear).
Copy&pasta from chat:
Any 50% incoming HD inflation is bad, especially if done with other archetypes than DDs; with that change any shaman could bring in a very potent HD to the group and the real DDs don't need to spec for it anymore, which makes room for new cheese specs. Furthermore with more of the deadly 50% HDs flying around it gets more and more difficult to cleanse them.

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Ghostweed
Posts: 183

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#14 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:54 pm

The additional effect of Gork Barbs is meh as is only good for finding that hidden healer or sometimes for 1v1 vs WP. I would like to see shorter CD and undefendable dmg from the dot part of the skill+some dmg scaling ( mine does almost 500dmg which is good, but after mitigation is more 200-300ish ).
Gorrgfang da Shaman & Gokrok da Black Orc

bloodi
Suspended
Posts: 1725

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#15 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:58 pm

The balance between the AM/Shaman heal debuffs is a bit... Odd.

Its clear, at least to me, that Mythic intended Shamans to be better at healing and being hard to kill, while Ams are worse, however they make up for it being better at the dps aspect.

Shamans lack a dot, Ams lack auto detauns and speed tactics and also a DSU equivalent, Shaman healdebuff is worse, Am dont have a group damage buff.

I personally thinks this gives the classes a little flavor instead of being direct mirrors, i dont think the differences are so big that is a major cause of imbalance.

Same happens with the Sorc/BW, Sorcs dont have a healdebuff but make up for it by having a better burst single target wise with Gloomburst and everything being spirit, while BWS get the same healdebuff shamies get, useful sometimes but not really something you want to spend your points as soon as you can.

There is other issues with Shaman/am dps that changing their heal debuff wont adress, even if you nerf the am one or buff the shammie one, so this to me only seems like an appeal to the other mirror, nothing else.

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Fey
Posts: 768

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#16 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:21 pm

Run between Worlds makes an AM as hard to kill as a shaman. Only one tactic slot, and I don't find the space to slot auto-detaunt and run away simultaneously. With the Tyrant set on live I felt like a god on my AM, gobs of group heals and 66% uptime of taking only half damage. IMO "Git outtta here," needs to be mirrored to, "Run Between Worlds," sorry off topic. The heal debuffs are a secondary issue to the classes, although, Scatter the Winds, is scads better than, Gork's Barbs. Not hard to see that.
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Daknallbomb
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Posts: 1781

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#17 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:25 pm

Luth wrote:Therefore the archmage one should be nerfed, though i didn't mention it directly (but i think from the oppinion shown in my post it was clear).
Copy&pasta from chat:
Any 50% incoming HD inflation is bad, especially if done with other archetypes than DDs; with that change any shaman could bring in a very potent HD to the group and the real DDs don't need to spec for it anymore, which makes room for new cheese specs. Furthermore with more of the deadly 50% HDs flying around it gets more and more difficult to cleanse them.
I Dont Think That A Heal Shammy Has The Pooints Fir Skill 9 Points In Mid Three . It Will Just Impactt dps Shammy Or Asisstt heal Shammys .
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#18 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:44 am

I wouldn't want gork's barbs side effect to go away. Maybe a decrease in its cooldown or increase its damage. Take gork's barbs + Hurts don't it tactic + Mork's touch tactic and target WP/RP and your eating them if you get some proc's off Mork's touch which is likely since WP/RP are blessing based. All you need is a beefy resist debuff coming from somewhere. Dps shaman's are good at killing WP/RP and I wouldn't want to see that role taken from them by changing the side effect on gork's barbs.

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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#19 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:09 am

I'd just like to add that improvements to the lifetap tree recently should be taken into consideration when buffing abilities from the middle (dps) tree.

No healer is going to grab the healdebuff, and because of the long CD it doesn't even properly fit the extremely niche role that say the AM fills in a group without a healdebuff. It something that only a DPS shaman will grab.

Also now that shrug it off is buffed, it brings some serious utility that a DPS shaman might even grab since they are getting puddle anyways. The DPS tree for shaman is being teared on by both sides and giving some serious power to the healdebuff is a good step in creating some balance between the viability of the trees.
<Lords of the Locker Room> <Old School>

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zumos2
Posts: 431

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#20 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:04 pm

Luth wrote:I'm against a lower cooldown and instead the secondary effect should be buffed, if necessary.
The most powerful/deadly debuff in competitive PvP should not exist on the healer archetype on such a low cooldown with a 100 feet range.
As all dedicated damage dealers have to spec 9 points as well for their 50% incoming healdebuffs (without any side effect) and the melee classes have a 5 feet range, a 10 second CD/100 feet range incoming HD is between the melee DD and the SH/SW healdebuffs in terms of usefulness to kill any healed target - on a healer class.
First of all, healers in Warhammer have the option to go for a dps spec. On some healers the dps spec is stronger and more viable than on others at this moment. Archmage in terms of damage and viability would be the strongest dps of order healers and still is not played at all in premades anywhere. Dps DoK I guess is the most viable dps of the healers, partly because of its strong heal debuff. When a healer can spec for a damage spec which can replace a dps, then why should they not have access to a heal debuff? Taking into consideration that a heal debuff is vital to have on your dps in order to kill anything really.

Where I can understand the opinon of healers not having a heal debuff is when they are fully healing specced. That would be possible by moving the heal debuff higher up in the dps tree for AM/Shaman. As the DoK and ZL/RP heal debuff require you to attack (and use a tactic slot) that shouldn't be of any problem. WP heal debuff is obviously a joke atm, but as it would require you to get into melee range I would argue even if buffed it can stay in its current position.
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