[SM] Crushing Advance

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roadkillrobin
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#11 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:49 am

If you move Crushing Wave back to 13 you gonna kill off the warband spec for anyone lower then 60 or 50+ with an extra MP.
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Tesq
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#12 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:06 am

Here there is a matter of contender, take avoidance stuff + utility gona make you drop one between those 13 pt skills.

Move up kd to 13 pt will basically nerf mid mastery for small scale where there is no reason for it.

Don't buff the currently 13 pt skill will just leave no contender vs cd decrease so when you have a group which do no need it, it"s basically just a back up to go mid till 13 pt and never a critical choice cuz cd decrease is always better, since it also silence.

Redirect force is bad probably it should be.improved but when you have kd which need to stay on 9pt....then you either buff CA for being a 13 pr skill or rewamp RF to be the 13 pt skill and move down to 5 pt CA with outchange it

I simply choose to make a qol/fix proposal to keep it simple but i could revisit this and make just a mastery fix proposal instead if ppl agree the mastery need more work.
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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altharion1
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#13 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:43 am

Spoiler:
Torquemadra wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am
Worth noting this shouldnt be a 13 point ability, crashing wave should be and Im inclined to swap them back.
I don't really understand the thinking behind this. Please consider how big of a nerf that would be, because it really would be a huge change. Unless Crashing Wave got some sort of buff (put not in fa face's cooldown increaser on it?) I don't see why just a basic knockdown deserves to be at 13. Maybe just reduce the tooltip damage on it.

1. The BO has Down Ya Go at 13 points, this is a knockdown and a cooldown decrease for group. Its position is mirrored by Whispering Winds at 13 points, ie a CC effect + cooldown decrease
2. Tree hit combo and ether dance both at 13.
3. Then there is Not in da face at 9 points, cooldown increaser + 4 seconds CC immunity. This nicely mirrors Crashing Wave at 9 points for a KD + 4 seconds CC immunity. Both decent 9 point options.

Taking away crashing wave at 9 points would be a huge nerf. And pushes SM back to its live state of being either loldps spamming ether dance with almost zero CC, debuffs, utility or survivability - or it can spec the most over rated skill in the game "Whispering Winds" use it once every 20 seconds and pretend it is being a useful tank.

The DPS IB is now pushing the SM out of the meta at smaller scale. The IB brings so much more utility, buffs, aoe snare, KD, ST punt, debuffs and survivability, All in one spec! - while the IBs damage output isnt actually that much lower than the SM.

If anything the SM needs a huge rework to its intended role in the game. The SM brings nothing but extra damage to the group. This damage doesnt work at warband scale and at small scale it is usually CC that gets kills at small scale. so the SM really struggles to find an identity or role, the other tanks are so much more refined in their roles, and have the skills to match these roles.
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Ramasee
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#14 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:51 am

Crushing Advance has another weakness not discussed in OP post. It is an improved balanced ability in a tree that already has the most improved balance abilities and it competes with all the other utility abilities.

If its possible to change the mechanic value required, make it a perfect balance ability. Increase its damage by ~34% to be in-line with dragon's talon. Leave the blockrate and cooldown the same. Change the armor component of the buff.
1. Make the armor buff stack, which would just mostly useful be against higher value weaponskill and armor debuffs.
2. Turn it into a decent size absorb. Fits the theme of vaul, and the defensive nature of the buff.
3. Make it into a debuff. Ability is called crushing advance and does have an ofensive component to it already, the interupt. Debuffing the opponent's armor will cause a 13 pt vaul SM to have more use in small scale.

(Quick Reference of Improved Balance Abilities)
Eagle's Flight - 25% parry for 5s.
Intimidating Blow - Reduce enemy morale, also about 20% more base damage.
Wrath of Hoeth - AoE, Spirit resist debuff (arguably not used much by vaul if party deals no spirit damage)
Deep Incision - Snare
Pehonix's Wing - Not going to be used by crushing advance user; cant have great weapon and shield equipped simultaneously.

Proposal to fix entire tree and as such slightly off-topic:
Spoiler:
*Send redirected force to core ability. Its terrible and mostly a PvE ability in its current state.

*Move crushing advance to 5pt slot. Turn it into a normal balance ability, match the armor amount buff to aethyric armor per rank (if it isn't already), otherwise leave it alone.

*Create a "new" ability for 13pt.
1. Put in a vigiliance effect.
2. Channel block ability with reflect damage.
3. Wings of Heaven morale changed to a perfect balance ability that goes to your defensive target only.
4. Attack speed buff for party and damage.
5. Self healing? Not sure where to take it from.

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Tesq
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#15 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:39 am

Imo a contender to cd reduction for a possible RF rework would be a dmg return when block / parry with 50% update time, maybe add a bit of dmg reduction too and should do ( double effect for only 50% update time).
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footpatrol2
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#16 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:04 pm

Swap "Crushing Advance" with "Crashing Wave."

Crushing advance doesn't need to be modified. It's a decent 9 point ability.

CytheX
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#17 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:43 pm

Spoiler:
Crashing advance is so decent that any decent sm won't waste a skill point on that, swapping crashing wave back will only kill any hoet/vaul, khaine/vaul pre 70, tbf if that's the spirit of 'balancing' things just remove vaul tree from game.
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Charon
Posts: 151

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#18 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:57 pm

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Torquemadra wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am
Worth noting this shouldnt be a 13 point ability, crashing wave should be and Im inclined to swap them back.
I don't really understand the thinking behind this. Please consider how big of a nerf that would be, because it really would be a huge change. Unless Crashing Wave got some sort of buff (put not in fa face's cooldown increaser on it?) I don't see why just a basic knockdown deserves to be at 13. Maybe just reduce the tooltip damage on it.

1. The BO has Down Ya Go at 13 points, this is a knockdown and a cooldown decrease for group. Its position is mirrored by Whispering Winds at 13 points, ie a CC effect + cooldown decrease
2. Tree hit combo and ether dance both at 13.
3. Then there is Not in da face at 9 points, cooldown increaser + 4 seconds CC immunity. This nicely mirrors Crashing Wave at 9 points for a KD + 4 seconds CC immunity. Both decent 9 point options.

Taking away crashing wave at 9 points would be a huge nerf. And pushes SM back to its live state of being either loldps spamming ether dance with almost zero CC, debuffs, utility or survivability - or it can spec the most over rated skill in the game "Whispering Winds" use it once every 20 seconds and pretend it is being a useful tank.

The DPS IB is now pushing the SM out of the meta at smaller scale. The IB brings so much more utility, buffs, aoe snare, KD, ST punt, debuffs and survivability, All in one spec! - while the IBs damage output isnt actually that much lower than the SM.

If anything the SM needs a huge rework to its intended role in the game. The SM brings nothing but extra damage to the group. This damage doesnt work at warband scale and at small scale it is usually CC that gets kills at small scale. so the SM really struggles to find an identity or role, the other tanks are so much more refined in their roles, and have the skills to match these roles.
[/quote][/quote]

What makes you think going full investment for ether dance should reward you with utility? You dont have to go for ether dance you know. Theres plenty of utility available to 2h or s&b, why should you get it all?

We have (should have) at 13 - Ether dance - good ability, Crashing wave - good ability, whispering winds - good ability

and what makes you think BO should have a KD, WITH utility at 13 while SM have a KD WITH utility at 9? No other tank KD at 9 has utility built into it, its only the 13 pointers.

Heres the thing people seem to be missing with just about ALL of the balance proposals, this isnt a "buff me" forum, you may not like the attention you bring.
[/quote]
it start to move into direction which we face when HB change was introduced.. After long discussion HB was nerfed to the point where is useless and most SMs removed it from their tool set (only because your quarrel with Peter3) what strongly weakened Hoeteh tree performance. In that case at least HB might have been seen as a issue.

But now..... Vaul tree is under performing because lack of important utilities neither in small scale nor in wb outside of some additional survivability for sm... Whats more SM generally doesn't have important utilities outside dmg (and doesn't have good smb option like BO) and you suggest another nerf in this department.... Sm players are calling for rework of weak path and you pretend to punish them for that.

Torque i appreciate your work and ideas when you trying fix some problems of classes that you know ....for example in wl case which are really appealing but in SM case i think you miss the point or.. you don't like this class generally..
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dansari
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#19 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm

Y'all really need to calm down. We literally had a conversation today about making Vaul better. Please just discuss the proposal
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Tesq
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#20 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:38 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Swap "Crushing Advance" with "Crashing Wave."

Crushing advance doesn't need to be modified. It's a decent 9 point ability.
yes it was in live and they always had this kd problem.....formaly the skill have multiple effect but you bring it for the kd , you want the kd, you need the kd and you had kd on 13 pt , where other tanks had it on 9 pt/core bo/sm had it on 13pt...

post 1.4.7 this is even more bad since all melee have 3 sec kd so no one will EVER care for a 13 pt mastery KD, especially when the contender is cd increase which is a positive effect which influence whole group vs a kd which can be used by an another tank /melee in the group (and on order side from 2/3 rdps too). That will never cut for any build ppl will till keep build left + right ignoring mid , it stil now lhappen most of times...due need to increase stat steal...due need of increase dmg overall or cd decrease from right.

the fact thet bo/sm skill may have additional effect is due the fact that they are not a very good buffer as ch/kobs and this always was fixed by get additional effects on skills for me. But still your primary tool is the KD, the 4 sec immunity gain is an accessory and nothing more, and for use specifically that you have to give a free immunity ( and the duration of the accessory effect is pretty low 4 sec).

CA is trash,,,,

-armor dont stack with pot so there is really no benefith to have it as 9 pt mastery if you don't go up till 13 and even that is just 200 armor overwriting pot.
-5% block is mediocre for a 9 pt(or 13 pt) skill which require both to land and can be shattered (with out count spend 1 MP on it lol
-interrupt which requrie to hit , good but still not gona make the word cry for you to have it, may just aswell drop s+b spam ether dance and produce more set back on casters....

You have two solution as they where alredy mentioned in the thread,

-one is a Qol change which is make by improve CA
-the other is rewamp RF for be a 13 pt skill and put CA into 5 pt wher a 5% block+ interrupt is fine ...

...the armor buff is like not existing since any tank see it overwrite by pot exept BG hence the solution 2----
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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