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[AM] M1 Isha's Ward

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2023

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#81 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:56 pm

Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 pm
For the record, the only people discussing 1v1 are those trying to say how much we shouldn’t.... Anarchy, I gave plenty of examples of ways and reasons to use this M1, not just WE. Go read my first post on page 5.

Other people, I don’t care if your premade WB or 6v6 team thinks it is the best choice. I for instance, don’t think Morale Pump on AM is ever a good choice. Different game theories aren't proof of anything. I have also stated that I don't believe this M1 will ever be used heavily(in cycle form) in 6v6's or premade WBs. Cause every class is supposed to be built a particular way in those settings. Ofc, 95% of gameplay doesn't take part in 6v6 events or premade WBs... Ofc, changing the M1 to 20s wont have any impact on any "intelligent" usage of this M1, in ANY setting.

Seriously, how much stuff "works" in 6man, gank squads, SCs, or NA timezone ORvR, that just flat out wont in EU ORvR simply due to amount of WBs? Don't use your timezone's ORvR zerg or not as proof of anything please. There are more ways to play competently outside of a TUP/Phalanx/Zerg premade WB... And remember, that is what Balance Forums are seen from, 6man+ and played competently. Not the best of the best 6v6 or 24v24 setting. You not using it, isn't proof of a damned thing.

This is the same(ish) as how Shaman proc needed to be changed cause it could be OP, just because something isn’t broken to the point everyone and their mother insists on using it, doesn’t mean it isn’t Op. and just cause you don’t use it, really doesn’t mean much...

And for the love of god... can we stop comparing Tactics to Morales? Survival tactics on Sham are “countered” by AM AP tactics. Shams “counter” to ishas ward is Mork Sayz Stop. You compare M1s to other M1s.

As for Tesq saying AMs have no Perma detaunt, escape/survival tools, or damage reduction.... go slap yourself in the face. AMs have 2 detaunts. 1 is a 100% up time ST.
Sham is the only healer that has a Kite tactic. So what? AM is the only one that gets 50% AP cost. AMs also have puddle.

Damage reduction is in the x2 detaunts, SOS, and other heal abilities. What damage reduction does any non-Z/RP have besides detaunts?

Tesq, dude, please. Reread your posts, plz try to make them legible. It’s possible I’m arguing that wrong side against you. Cause your **** hard to understand.

Other than that... I believe every question has been answered, or at least attempted to be, previously in this thread.
So basically any ability that is unique and strong should be removed?
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Knowthyself
Posts: 53

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#82 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:06 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:56 pm
Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 pm
For the record, the only people discussing 1v1 are those trying to say how much we shouldn’t.... Anarchy, I gave plenty of examples of ways and reasons to use this M1, not just WE. Go read my first post on page 5.

Other people, I don’t care if your premade WB or 6v6 team thinks it is the best choice. I for instance, don’t think Morale Pump on AM is ever a good choice. Different game theories aren't proof of anything. I have also stated that I don't believe this M1 will ever be used heavily(in cycle form) in 6v6's or premade WBs. Cause every class is supposed to be built a particular way in those settings. Ofc, 95% of gameplay doesn't take part in 6v6 events or premade WBs... Ofc, changing the M1 to 20s wont have any impact on any "intelligent" usage of this M1, in ANY setting.

Seriously, how much stuff "works" in 6man, gank squads, SCs, or NA timezone ORvR, that just flat out wont in EU ORvR simply due to amount of WBs? Don't use your timezone's ORvR zerg or not as proof of anything please. There are more ways to play competently outside of a TUP/Phalanx/Zerg premade WB... And remember, that is what Balance Forums are seen from, 6man+ and played competently. Not the best of the best 6v6 or 24v24 setting. You not using it, isn't proof of a damned thing.

This is the same(ish) as how Shaman proc needed to be changed cause it could be OP, just because something isn’t broken to the point everyone and their mother insists on using it, doesn’t mean it isn’t Op. and just cause you don’t use it, really doesn’t mean much...

And for the love of god... can we stop comparing Tactics to Morales? Survival tactics on Sham are “countered” by AM AP tactics. Shams “counter” to ishas ward is Mork Sayz Stop. You compare M1s to other M1s.

As for Tesq saying AMs have no Perma detaunt, escape/survival tools, or damage reduction.... go slap yourself in the face. AMs have 2 detaunts. 1 is a 100% up time ST.
Sham is the only healer that has a Kite tactic. So what? AM is the only one that gets 50% AP cost. AMs also have puddle.

Damage reduction is in the x2 detaunts, SOS, and other heal abilities. What damage reduction does any non-Z/RP have besides detaunts?

Tesq, dude, please. Reread your posts, plz try to make them legible. It’s possible I’m arguing that wrong side against you. Cause your **** hard to understand.

Other than that... I believe every question has been answered, or at least attempted to be, previously in this thread.
So basically any ability that is unique and strong should be removed?
Any ability that extends the purpose of its type must be fixed. I don't understand why you guys react as if he suggested the ability to be removed completely. Insisting to show a moral ability with 60sec. duration normal or just strong? Come on ! Be objective!
Come On
Newgit
Knowthyself

User avatar
adamthelc
Posts: 633

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#83 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:48 pm

People aren't reacting as if he suggested the ability is being removed completely. People are reacting because it would be a nerf to an ability that isn't overpowered or game breaking.

Are AMs impossible to kill because every time someone engages then it's in that magic window where they get 2 Morales in a short duration?

Yes it's unique in the way it can be used because of its duration. That in itself is not a good reason to nerf it. You nerf something because it is too strong, not because it's not uniform with other similar abilities.

You could make a laundry list of abilities that are similar, but not exactly the same. Some with much larger power gaps than between IW and similar absorbs. A good example would be shatter limbs and bad gas.

Nerfing something that isn't too strong is asinine. I don't agree with the notion of 100% uptime, but let's say it does have 100% uptime, does that make AMs harder to kill than any other healer? If your answer isn't yes, why does the change to be made?

If you think this makes AMs too hard to kill, I don't agree with you, but at least that's a valid argument for changing the ability. If you want to change it just because it doesn't operate the same as other abilities, I don't think you really understand how this game is balanced.

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Nameless
Posts: 732

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#84 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:50 pm

Am m1 share similarities with shaman m1. Isha had 1 min duratation which is same with gork sez stop. If u dont stop ticks will count for full min. So both miror classes got morals that last 1 min. It is true that both morals are quite different but there is some reason to be made with mirrrored duratation. Most important is that these morals are just okish and duration nerf is just uncalled
Mostly harmless

User avatar
adamthelc
Posts: 633

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#85 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:58 pm

Nameless wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:50 pm
Am m1 share similarities with shaman m1. Isha had 1 min duratation which is same with gork sez stop. If u dont stop ticks will count for full min. So both miror classes got morals that last 1 min. It is true that both morals are quite different but there is some reason to be made with mirrrored duratation. Most important is that these morals are just okish and duration nerf is just uncalled
While that may be why they changed it to 60 seconds, I have no idea. This wasn't the original version of IW. On release it was a group 50% AA speed buff or something wasn't it?

Knowthyself
Posts: 53

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#86 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:03 pm

Nameless wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:50 pm
Am m1 share similarities with shaman m1. Isha had 1 min duratation which is same with gork sez stop. If u dont stop ticks will count for full min. So both miror classes got morals that last 1 min. It is true that both morals are quite different but there is some reason to be made with mirrrored duratation. Most important is that these morals are just okish and duration nerf is just uncalled
Don't be ridicilous. Shaman's gork sez stop is a damage moral and it depends on your target. If the target doesn't move it fades away in 2scs basicly. "So both miror classes got morals that last 1 min" lol Holly imagination! What about making this change then ; "if you do not take any damage in 2 seconds the absorb bubble will fade" ??
adamthelc wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:58 pm
While that may be why they changed it to 60 seconds, I have no idea. This wasn't the original version of IW. On release it was a group 50% AA speed buff or something wasn't it?
Yes in live it was working originally that way.
Last edited by Knowthyself on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Come On
Newgit
Knowthyself

Knowthyself
Posts: 53

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#87 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:05 pm

Double post
Come On
Newgit
Knowthyself

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#88 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:21 pm

For the record, Adamthelc's argument that the ability isn't powerful enough to warrant a nerf holds some merit. Risking a thread derailment, but what level of power would warrant a nerf? If we hold IW in regards to say, Festering Arrow being limited, then correct, IW is not worth the time. If, however, you look at some of the other abilities that have been altered, or Nerfed such as Sham procs being limited (because of 1 6sham group night), I believe IW timer stands amongst them. Yes, some abilities like Destroy Confidence are/were way higher on the Power scale in terms of what "needs" to be nerfed or balanced. However, if you feel there is something that is in greater need of balancing, then make a thread about it. That's what I did.

IW could very well fall into the catagory of Unique and Powerful, but not Broken. However, it is my opinion that it is deserving of an adjustment to 20s. Keep in mind, nothing is ever set in stone on this server. If after a week at 20s it's found to now be crap and worthless(I don't see how but meh)it can/would be changed back.

One should also keep in mind the opening statement by Peterthepan3 "all morales will most likely be looked at eventually in this manner." We have already seen morales have their CD timer adjusted. So saying this isn't worth it, or not worth looking at, or "who cares" ignores the fact(or possibility) that this type of "nerf" will be utilized on other morales similarly. Is IW worth being altered? Honestly, I think that will be answered by the DB team once this thread is locked. No one here really gets to decide... We just argue:P

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Bozzax
Posts: 2023

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#89 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:40 pm

The purpose of balancing abilities is to balance classes. Ie making strong classes weaker or weak classes stronger.

If an AM was tough to kill this M1 would be a good starting point but they aren’t. AMs are the squishiest healer of all 6 in a 6v6 context and most are even burstable wo assist unlike RPs/WPs/Dok/zele/shmy
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

anarchypark
Posts: 1333

Re: [AM] M1 Isha's Ward [Close Date: 6th May]

Post#90 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:14 pm

I think we're repeating ourselves.
skill have pros and cons in group play.
I don't see it over performing
you see it otherwise.
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