[Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

[Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:34 pm

After careful consideration based off the feedback given to us by the community, we have decided to implement the following changes: The change to Get Down! turned into Halt, Fool! has been reverted. At 9pts in Malice, Halt, Fool! is now Malignant Strike!. The ability costs AP rather than Hate, has no cooldown reduction on Exile, no longer snares, and no longer grants a movespeed bonus.

We thank you for your involvement.


This proposed change pertains to the Blackguard's Halt Fool, which is located at 9-pts Malice. You are cordially invited to give your feedback on these proposed changes, and to share your thoughts.

For information on how to structure your feedback, please refer to this thread prior to giving your feedback. It is imperative that you structure your feedback as per the given structure in the aforementioned link.


It is imperative that you check out Step Two of this thread for rules and guidelines on giving feedback.

CLOSE DATE: 6th OCTOBER



Note: If you do not adhere to the structure that is required, your post will be subject to moderation, and possible deletion (should you continue to do so).



Proposed Changes
  • 2h Requirement remains
  • Speed component removed
  • Snare component removed
  • Hate requirement removed
  • 3-second KD component remains
  • Cooldown reduction component for Exile removed
  • A 25 AP cost is added to the ability
  • Exile's pre-change cooldown of 10 seconds is reinstated
Reasoning behind said changes
  • Suggested changes will bring the KD in line with every other tank KD[ (particularly its mirror, the IB). 25 AP is standard cost. On-demand CC is the most crucial part of a tank's arsenal. Speed buffs for BG are aplenty via subjugator/epic quest weapon procs and Endless Pursuit (high uptime with Rebounding Hatred and/or Shielding Anger)
  • In addition, it adds unnecessary clunkiness to the rotation for timed CC via the Hatred cost, which seems to go against the flow of the rotation: position at the sides or rear of a target, KD -> Enraged Beating (to get back to 100 Mechanic), reposition for punt direction, punt
  • Competent Order tanks will recognize when a Blackguard is attempting a KD-into-KB manoeuvre, knowing that there is significant ramp-up time involved in the execution of this for the Blackguard: this video (made by Qep) shows the extent of this ramp-up time
  • Crippling Anger (your snare) should always be applied prior to executing CC, so the snare component of "Halt Fool" is rendered redundant
  • Every capable BG player will always position himself properly for a KD attempt, so the snare is again not necessary; bad gameplay gets somewhat rewarded with a snare.
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Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#2 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:59 pm

Have bg rr 70, have ib rank 40 for tomorrow.
Played bg both in wb and in small scale both in com

This is a nerf not a buff but the speed proc was extremly unbalanced, i used that build to lv up till rr 70 . There was no real downside post changes the only thing was not be able to punt pre kd and have 10 sec CD on punt (and not be able to alpha strike kd). That was totally worth or either just build hate 1 sec then punt the tank. It was 1 gcd or none at all if focussed. I agree to the proposal.

The kd also had improper use as speed proc for escape/kite purpose...i lost count how many times i survived due the free speed proc or how many ppl i was able to catch and punt. Exemple : i snare + kd tank, initiate channeling on KD-ed tank while move on primary target ti rebuild hate, snare primary target + super punt him (meanwhile the tank got up chased you all the way and now is separated here where the healer was pre the punt...you snare him again and he now remain away from healer till focus end....healer get focussed and die).
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#3 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:30 pm

I do not play blackguard. I do not play it's mirror. I do, however, play kotbs and main swordmaster.

I have played in both order and destro 24 man comms min/max warbands as a tank. Blackguards were not desired in those warbands due to their abilities and required build up. While this changes doesn't really effect bomb warbands, I can state that the ramp time for blackguards can be an issue.

In 6 man and pug scs, I can affirm that order tanks can see the knockdown and immediately taunt you when you start to channel enraged beating to keep your knockback from being effective.

My general feedback is to support this change due to IB, KotBS, anf Chosen being able to kb/punt effectively. (BO and SM having the aoe punt, instead). It is both a nerf and a buff depending on the situation, so we should just call it a change lol.

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SmackdownNinja
Posts: 72

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#4 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:07 am

1. Do you play the class in question? Yes, I main a 40/77 BG

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)? I mainly play in orgainized wbs with comms and pug wbs. I play SCs too but to a lesser extent.

4. Your feedback
I agree with this proposal. It does feel clunky to use and requires EB to be used right after so you can get your max punt. However, good tanks will taunt you making this difficult. The snare is also not needed. The speed proc is nice to have but it just rewards bad positioning. Peter did a great a job in explaining the issues so there isn’t much to add to it.
Last edited by SmackdownNinja on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sulorie
Posts: 4156

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#5 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:56 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:34 pm



[*]In addition, it adds unnecessary clunkiness to the rotation for timed CC via the Hatred cost, which seems to go against the flow of the rotation: position at the sides or rear of a target, KD -> Enraged Beating (to get back to 100 Mechanic), reposition for punt direction, punt
[*]Competent Order tanks will recognize when a Blackguard is attempting a KD-into-KB manoeuvre, knowing that there is significant ramp-up time involved in the execution of this for the Blackguard: this video (made by Qep) shows the extent of this ramp-up time
I play BG, no mirror and more sc than rvr.


With the use of dark protector the ramp-up time could be significantly reduced opposed to the linked video but the stated core problem is absolutely true, that too many actions are required to simply kd->kb like other classes. The KB already needs high hatred, no reason to hide a 3sec kd behind so many barriers.
Dying is no option.

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Dallas2288
Posts: 35

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#6 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:02 pm

Proposed Changes
2h Requirement remains
Speed component removed
Snare component removed
Hate requirement removed
3-second KD component remains
Cooldown reduction component for Exile removed
A 25 AP cost is added to the ability
Exile's pre-change cooldown of 10 seconds is reinstated
Reasoning behind said changes
Suggested changes will bring the KD in line with every other tank KD[ (particularly its mirror, the IB). 25 AP is standard cost. On-demand CC is the most crucial part of a tank's arsenal. Speed buffs for BG are aplenty via subjugator/weapon procs and Endless Pursuit (high uptime with Rebounding Hatred and/or Shielding Anger)
In addition, it adds unnecessary clunkiness to the rotation for timed CC via the Hatred cost, which seems to go against the flow of the rotation: position at the sides or rear of a target, KD -> Enraged Beating (to get back to 100 Mechanic), reposition for punt direction, punt
Competent Order tanks will recognize when a Blackguard is attempting a KD-into-KB manoeuvre, knowing that there is significant ramp-up time involved in the execution of this for the Blackguard: this video (made by Qep) shows the extent of this ramp-up time
Crippling Anger (your snare) should always be applied prior to executing CC, so the snare component of "Halt Fool" is rendered redundant
Every capable BG player will always position himself properly for a KD attempt, so the snare is again not necessary; bad gameplay gets somewhat rewarded with a snare.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
75 BG here. Solo pug SC player, and casual guild WB orvr play mostly.

Sounds good to me Peter. I'm all for the trade-off of an on call KD and 10sec KB in exchange for the short snare/speed.

I'm already nearly perma-superspeed in large scale rvr with Endless Pursuit and Subj procs coupled with 110% disrupt.

Do it.
Last edited by Dallas2288 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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K13R
Posts: 97

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#7 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:13 pm

I play a BG 40/56 have mirror IB but low level

play open rvr, plug sc,

I like this change both to KD and exile going 10 sec. The speed proc is nice but I would be willing to lose it for this proposal. I feel like this is good and has my support.
Last edited by K13R on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#8 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:14 pm

Please restructure feedback as per the guidelines found here (so your experience with the class, from what pov you are speaking, your thoughts). This is aimed at Dallas and Smackdownninja. If it is not amended in due time then I'll have to spoiler your feedback until it is. Cheers!
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scatterthewinds
Posts: 146

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#9 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:17 pm

This is Uthwe,

Have all the tanks.

2h Requirement remains
Speed component remains
Snare component removed
Hate requirement removed
3-second KD component remains
CD for 2h punt always 20s
A 25 AP cost is added to the ability


The speed bonus is an interesting little mechanic as it is now and not particularly overpowered. It allows for some interesting gameplay and I think it balances out the strong tooltip damage from cave-in. Pre-change CD of 10 seconds would be too strong. If anything though, the tanks with s/b should have the 10s punt cd and the 2hers should have 20s punt cd, because the s/b do not contribute the same level of damage as the 2hers. Its a give-and-take thing. If you must reduce CD with a 2h, keep it as it is now.

User avatar
wachlarz
Posts: 245

Re: [Proposed Changes] Blackguard| Halt Fool

Post#10 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:16 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:34 pm
This proposed change pertains to the Blackguard's Halt Fool, which is located at 9-pts Malice. You are cordially invited to give your feedback on these proposed changes, and to share your thoughts.

For information on how to structure your feedback, please refer to this thread prior to giving your feedback. It is imperative that you structure your feedback as per the given structure in the aforementioned link.


It is imperative that you check out Step Two of this thread for rules and guidelines on giving feedback.

CLOSE DATE: 6th OCTOBER



Note: If you do not adhere to the structure that is required, your post will be subject to moderation, and possible deletion (should you continue to do so).



Proposed Changes
  • 2h Requirement remains
  • Speed component removed
  • Snare component removed
  • Hate requirement removed
  • 3-second KD component remains
  • Cooldown reduction component for Exile removed
  • A 25 AP cost is added to the ability
  • Exile's pre-change cooldown of 10 seconds is reinstated
Reasoning behind said changes
  • Suggested changes will bring the KD in line with every other tank KD[ (particularly its mirror, the IB). 25 AP is standard cost. On-demand CC is the most crucial part of a tank's arsenal. Speed buffs for BG are aplenty via subjugator/weapon procs and Endless Pursuit (high uptime with Rebounding Hatred and/or Shielding Anger)
  • In addition, it adds unnecessary clunkiness to the rotation for timed CC via the Hatred cost, which seems to go against the flow of the rotation: position at the sides or rear of a target, KD -> Enraged Beating (to get back to 100 Mechanic), reposition for punt direction, punt
  • Competent Order tanks will recognize when a Blackguard is attempting a KD-into-KB manoeuvre, knowing that there is significant ramp-up time involved in the execution of this for the Blackguard: this video (made by Qep) shows the extent of this ramp-up time
  • Crippling Anger (your snare) should always be applied prior to executing CC, so the snare component of "Halt Fool" is rendered redundant
  • Every capable BG player will always position himself properly for a KD attempt, so the snare is again not necessary; bad gameplay gets somewhat rewarded with a snare.
40/45 sc/small scale

Not everyone has access to the Sub weapon. It should not be must have for BG. If there is a problem with the speed of moving with the weapon and with the skill, it may be better to change the bonus on the weapon to another

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