[Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

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peterthepan3
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[Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:01 pm

After careful consideration based off the feedback given to us by the community, we have decided to implement the following changes: Fragmentation Grenade has been changed to Fulminate Charge because its physical damage has been changed to Corporeal.

We thank you for your involvement.


This proposed change pertains to the Engineer's Fragmentation Grenade, which is a core ability in the Grenadier tree. You are cordially invited to give your feedback on these proposed changes, and to share your thoughts.

For information on how to structure your feedback, please refer to this thread prior to giving your feedback. It is imperative that you structure your feedback as per the given structure in the aforementioned link.


It is imperative that you check out Step Two of this thread for rules and guidelines on giving feedback.

CLOSE DATE: 6th OCTOBER



Note: If you do not adhere to the structure that is required, your post will be subject to moderation, and possible deletion (should you continue to do so).



Proposed Changes
  • Fragmentation Grenade's damage type is changed from Physical to Corporeal
  • Fragmentation Grenade's tooltip name is changed to Incendiary Grenades* (this is subject to change, and we welcome your suggestions on this) to better reflect its new damage type
Reasoning behind said changes
  • It is the only ability in the Grenadier tree that does Physical damage
  • Lack of an AoE armor debuff on order means that the Grenadier Engineer has no means of debuffing the damage type of their main AoE DoT
  • Mirror aspect: Changing Magus is entirely Spiritual damage, and even has a 0.625 int mod compared to Fragmentation Grenade's 0.5 bal mod. While Changing Magus can debuff his enemies' resistances entirely to his Spirit damage, a Grenadier cannot do the same with Fragmentation Grenade
  • Any fears of it overperforming are moot given the aforementioned concerning ballistic damage modifier, as well as the fact that this change would possibly result in a decrease in damage against super squishies (but a significant increase in damage against targets with higher armor values)
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wonshot
Posts: 406

Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#2 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:56 pm

RR 68 Engineer mainly running organized warbands.
Some pug warbands, and some pug scs.
Largescale Wb & rvr approach in way of thinking.


I think this is a step in the right direction to adress the wierd situation Engineer is in, where some materies are psyical damage based and others are corp. So this makes me wonder, how will Weaponskill and WS set bonuses affect a damage-type change like this?

Will it be a wasted stat, or does it scale into the damage calculations? like how the Spannerswipe tooltip says it takes Ranged statistics into account when used.


But overall it seems like a good Grenadier change, but makes the Tinker spec even more wierd I guess, since Tinker will now have a close to 50/50 damage-output of psyical / corp damaging ability arsenal (Static discharge 5sec cooldown removal and fully commit to Tinker being corp based instead of mainly Blunderbust and some corp dots)
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Tesq
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Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#3 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:03 pm

No engi

Tought this is a global game prob cuz engi suffer because there is not in game on both sides aoe armor debuff. That is pretty lame and phosphorous shell failed like two times to be implemended like that (for tecnical problems), engi especially is the best candidate for that. Given the need for order physical classes to perform better in orvr (this comprihend sw, engi, wl, wh, ) that would still be a good candidate, rather than change skil type in the long run it could work better. Not saying to try again an attempt on phosporous shell but regardless still on engi.
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Glorian
Posts: 4394

Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#4 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:17 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes. Tinkerer RR1-60
Rifleman RR60-80

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

No Magus. Only low lvl experience T1 Experience

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Running Dwarf Warbands for 3 years now on RoR. Heavy use of Engineers in general. Fighting as an Engi on premade Order Warbands.

4. Your feedback

I would like these changes on Grenadier as of now Frag Grenade is not really used anymore or very deep down in your rotation.

Grenadier as well as Tinkerer usually ignore WS completeley. With only minor Abilities getting a bonus from high WS.
Like:
Landmine
Frag Grenade
Blunderbuss
Flame Turret main Attack

So Grenadiers or Tinkerers just go max BS and then Crits and put the rest in wounds or survivability. As almost all other abilites on middle and right tree don't work better with more WS.

And most of these Abilities are only used because of their purpose, not because they are great.
Landmine -> If you have Concussive Mines Tactic
Blunderbuss -> If Friction Burn, Phosphourus Shells, Static Discharge AND Lightning Rod are on cooldown.

Frag Grenade is usually left out as it's Damage on Tanks is not measurable. If you fight in RvR every Global Cooldown counts and you usually start with an Acid bomb to debuff. After that the heavy hitters come like Friction burn or Phosphourus shells.

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Nidwin
Posts: 620

Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#5 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:27 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
No.

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?
Yes, I do.
I've also a levelled dedicated, about the mentioned tree in the proposal, Magus.

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?
I write from the perspective from someone who mains Magus, multiple ones. I've also experience with the mentioned tree in the proposal by playing the mirror class. Both trees, Magus and Engineer ones, are quite closely mirrored, especially skills wise.

4. The damage type change makes sense to me to have the entire tree, including core abilities, corporeal damage based.
The name change does not imo and I would suggest to just keep it as it is. Folks are used to the name.
Any fears of it overperforming can only come from non Engineer or Magus players making their opinion irrelevant to this discussion. Pandemonium, the Magus mirror of Fragmentation Grenade is decent to sub-par and mainly used because there's simply nothing else available.

Amend remark.
Yes for the change but it won't resolve the main issue that Engineer's Path of The Gernadier has or may have. The same issue, or perceived one, encountered by it's mirror Path of Changing for the Magus.
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Orontes
Posts: 133

Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#6 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:38 pm

1. Do you play the class in question?

Engi rr 65


2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Engi rr 65
Magus rr 75

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Play both classes regularly in scens and RoR

4. Your feedback

It's a sound proposal. I agree with it being implemented. Grenadier should have a damage debuff. As it currently stands, Fragmentation Grenade isn't really used by Grenadier engi.

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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#7 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:45 pm

I have an Engi 40/39 (I main IB)

My only comment, other than to agree with the changes is leave the name as it is. Doesn't need a name change.

Having Rifleman phys and Grenadier corp with Tinker as the utility suite makes allot of sense.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#8 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:00 am

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. We will now compile and look at all of your feedback, and a decision will be made in due time.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Proposed Changes] Engineer| Fragmentation Grenade

Post#9 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:41 pm

After careful consideration based off the feedback given to us by the community, we have decided to implement the following changes: Fragmentation Grenade has been changed to Fulminate Charge because its physical damage has been changed to Corporeal.

We thank you for your involvement.
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