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[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#91 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Vandoles wrote: The idea of the change isnt a guaranteed snare, rather a snare as long as you're running away. That's also why I suggested feinted positioning to affect it - that means its a guaranteed snare for 10 seconds every minute. And you blow through your major damage dealing skill to use it - you even blow the ability to KD freely.

You say stealth is a much more effective tool than charge, but you miss the part where a rdps can simply...walk away from a stealther. Any WE/WH knows you need some luck to jump an rdps with stealth.

And although I agree with your reasoning of the swift pursuit tactic (it also adresses 1v1s adequately), I think snap shot and throwing dagger are not as gamebreaking as you might think. In a competitive environment it makes WH/WE even better rdps hunters than they are. But a group still has to gimp itself with a WE/WH to gain that advantage, which kind of evens it out.
Right a snare as long as your target is running away, as a rdps fighting a melee group in a competitive environment you will always be running away to avoid dying, this is why stealth is superior to charge a rdps can simply flee from a target charging them, sure stealth may not be 100% reliable, there will be times when you sneak up on a rdps and they can see you 20ft away but the majority of the times you will nail them before they see you coming, pop on them, kd and in comes your group, this provides enough pressure that the team with rdps will be on the back foot (pressure is key in competitive play, i know because i have lost enough 6v6 because i cannot dps due to being pressured so much) you can also stack ini (as wrong as that may be) so its less likely for you to be seen.

As for gimping yourself with a we/wh i agree that ideally slay/wl, slay/slay, chop/mara are the most favoured setups but you would take a wh/we over any rdps, this potential change will make we/wh more viable when fighting rdps and do nothing v melee, if the idea is to make we/wh more viable in competitive play where melee is favoured then why is a range snare even the problem ? as you would be fighting melee groups 90% of the time anyway.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#92 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:24 pm

Morf wrote: Right a snare as long as your target is running away, as a rdps fighting a melee group in a competitive environment you will always be running away to avoid dying, this is why stealth is superior to charge a rdps can simply flee from a target charging them, sure stealth may not be 100% reliable, there will be times when you sneak up on a rdps and they can see you 20ft away but the majority of the times you will nail them before they see you coming, pop on them, kd and in comes your group, this provides enough pressure that the team with rdps will be on the back foot (pressure is key in competitive play, i know because i have lost enough 6v6 because i cannot dps due to being pressured so much) you can also stack ini (as wrong as that may be) so its less likely for you to be seen.

As for gimping yourself with a we/wh i agree that ideally slay/wl, slay/slay, chop/mara are the most favoured setups but you would take a wh/we over any rdps, this potential change will make we/wh more viable when fighting rdps and do nothing v melee, if the idea is to make we/wh more viable in competitive play where melee is favoured then why is a range snare even the problem ? as you would be fighting melee groups 90% of the time anyway.
I think you're talking only 6v6 and missing all other forms of gameplay. In bigger engagements and scenarios, it isn't always a fight of pressure while waiting for a weak spot to break. In such a case a consistent ranged snare might be a problem, true, but again, you're missing the part where it could be with a lowered range (35-45 ft) or rely on feinted positioning. I think you're also slightly overstating how much of an effect it would have even in 6v6. Keep in mind, snap shot/throwing dagger doesn't have an infinite range, nor is it instant. More, it's a 5 second snare. It can't be cast in stealth. So to ranged snare a target, you'd need to be in range, cast it every 3 seconds and be out of stealth. You say stealth is a good enough ability to target rdps and they don't need MORE, but snap shot/throwing dagger doesn't ADD to stealth. FIghting a WH/WE competitively you won't be faced with being snared 100% of the time (also consider that whole running away thing and the feinted positioning idea), because they'll likely be stealthing, sitting behind the tanks because they are squishy as hell and ocassionally popping off a snare to try and catch you out of position.

That rdps might be inferior to choppa/mara/WL/slayer is, I think, not the subject of this thread.

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#93 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:24 pm

Just to add, the point here is to make wh/we more viable in competitive play right ? so in competitive play rdps are already shafted, melee is king, so this change shafts rdps even more and makes we/wh better v rdps groups, this change does nothing when its melee v melee which is 90% of competitive fights.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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noisestorm
Posts: 1727

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#94 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:47 pm

Morf wrote:Just to add, the point here is to make wh/we more viable in competitive play right ? so in competitive play rdps are already shafted, melee is king, so this change shafts rdps even more and makes we/wh better v rdps groups, this change does nothing when its melee v melee which is 90% of competitive fights.
Which is just complete nonsense if you ask me.

If you face a group of Slayer+WL or Double Maras, your ranged group will most likely get MORE rekt, than if those would be with a WE or WH on either side. Not sure how you even remotely believe that this change will shift RDPS further away, when all it does is rescaling the Melee balance by barely anything. Its actually more likely to make WH/WE a bit more reliable to pick for certain situations as opposed to running your current Meta groups.

In other Words: Your Melee group trades off pounce,pulls or charges, for a Shortranged slow. Not sure how you think this will be worse for RDPS groups..

Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#95 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:53 pm

noisestorm wrote:
Morf wrote:Just to add, the point here is to make wh/we more viable in competitive play right ? so in competitive play rdps are already shafted, melee is king, so this change shafts rdps even more and makes we/wh better v rdps groups, this change does nothing when its melee v melee which is 90% of competitive fights.
Which is just complete nonsense if you ask me.

If you face a group of Slayer+WL or Double Maras, your ranged group will most likely get MORE rekt, than if those would be with a WE or WH on either side. Not sure how you even remotely believe that this change will shift RDPS further away, when all it does is rescaling the Melee balance by barely anything. Its actually more likely to make WH/WE a bit more reliable to pick for certain situations as opposed to running your current Meta groups.

In other Words: Your Melee group trades off pounce,pulls or charges, for a Shortranged slow. Not sure how you think this will be worse for RDPS groups..
Pretty much what I was trying to say with my arguments as well, it's a very minor buff to a class that is severely underpowered compared to other options even with it.

Honestly, the only thing it will "break" is shamans solo kiting WH to death.

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#96 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:40 pm

Spoiler:
Vandoles wrote:
noisestorm wrote:
Morf wrote:Just to add, the point here is to make wh/we more viable in competitive play right ? so in competitive play rdps are already shafted, melee is king, so this change shafts rdps even more and makes we/wh better v rdps groups, this change does nothing when its melee v melee which is 90% of competitive fights.
Which is just complete nonsense if you ask me.

If you face a group of Slayer+WL or Double Maras, your ranged group will most likely get MORE rekt, than if those would be with a WE or WH on either side. Not sure how you even remotely believe that this change will shift RDPS further away, when all it does is rescaling the Melee balance by barely anything. Its actually more likely to make WH/WE a bit more reliable to pick for certain situations as opposed to running your current Meta groups.

In other Words: Your Melee group trades off pounce,pulls or charges, for a Shortranged slow. Not sure how you think this will be worse for RDPS groups..
Pretty much what I was trying to say with my arguments as well, it's a very minor buff to a class that is severely underpowered compared to other options even with it.

Honestly, the only thing it will "break" is shamans solo kiting WH to death.
If they are as underpowered as you say then explain in what ways, the point of this thread is to make it easier for wh/we to catch rdps, something they can already do and in most situations easier then the other archetype defined skill "charge".
Im not disagreeing that wl/slay and mara/chop are the favoured melee setup what im disagreeing with is the reasoning of this change, being able to catch rdps, im also not disagreeing that snapshot/throw dagger are easily countered by players who can strafe but the approach and reasoning taken as to why they should be changed is a bad one imo.

If you read the balance forum rules it states identify an issue, the issue listed is catching rdps, something that slayer/choppa also suffer from, charge and stealth are the tools to do so, so going by this logic its fair to assume slay/chop also need a range snare right ? and you could even argue a bigger case seeing as rdps cant see a stealther coming but can easily see a choppa/slayer charging in which gives them a greatr chance to counter them.
Repeatedly failed to acknowledge the debunked and already before spoilered comment viewtopic.php?f=96&t=17613&p=192644#p192644 .
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#97 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:57 am

Morf wrote: If they are as underpowered as you say then explain in what ways, the point of this thread is to make it easier for wh/we to catch rdps, something they can already do and in most situations easier then the other archetype defined skill "charge".
Im not disagreeing that wl/slay and mara/chop are the favoured melee setup what im disagreeing with is the reasoning of this change, being able to catch rdps, im also not disagreeing that snapshot/throw dagger are easily countered by players who can strafe but the approach and reasoning taken as to why they should be changed is a bad one imo.

If you read the balance forum rules it states identify an issue, the issue listed is catching rdps, something that slayer/choppa also suffer from, charge and stealth are the tools to do so, so going by this logic its fair to assume slay/chop also need a range snare right ? and you could even argue a bigger case seeing as rdps cant see a stealther coming but can easily see a choppa/slayer charging in which gives them a greatr chance to counter them.
You said WE/WH can already catch rdps, which is completely false. The WE has a 25% speed buff (which in most cases is not adequate) and WH has nothing agaisnt being kited.

No one is talking about slayers and choppas needing a ranged snare.

Of course you can't see a stealther coming (disregarding the fact the biggest problems to kiters are squigs, who do indeed see you coming most of the time), that still doesn't help with the fact that if the rdps lives through your stun, its over, you can get kited to death and there's nothing you can do about it.

And what about melees who run away from WE/WH? Because you're missing the point that even a melee can just run away from a WE/WH easily, as can a healer.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#98 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:03 pm

After 11 pages of this I think these are the changes I'd like to see tested as "ex"

1. Change Feinted position to affecting TD/SS (again)
2. Changing 12pts Sweeping Razor/Broad Severing tactics adding an AOE snare effect (5s 40% or 10s 20%)

That would give WE/WHs a 10s window with reliable ranged snares* at the cost of AW/Tor spam. Secondly add some interesting 25" AOE CC group util outside of solo cookie cutter specs. The reason for the latter to compensate for stealth becoming less viable in ORVR.

* That also can be further improved with tactic

Giving WE/WH spammable core ranged snares or snares seems excessive as stealth in many situations functions as a superior gap closer.

1v1 this will be very painful for everyone but WH/WEs:)
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#99 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:16 pm

Bozzax wrote:After 11 pages of this I think these are the changes I'd like to see tested as "ex"

1. Change Feinted position to affecting TD/SS (again)
2. Changing 12pts Sweeping Razor/Broad Severing tactics adding an AOE snare effect (5s 40% or 10s 20%)

Agreed (especially with 1). Also the suggestion made on page 1 by Aza, i.e. stacking snare, could be cool.

Just need to bear in mind, however, that the WE/WH - when popping out of stealth - have a very high chance to kill their target via the use of sick burst damage/CC that doesn't deplete the mechanic or necessitate offspecing (SL/Choppa KD depletes rage, WL/Mara KDs are in trees not typically used for anything other than solo/1v1). Basically I echo what Morfee said, but at the same time I do feel the class should have some tools at its disposal for closing the gap and I think FP ensuring a snare would be a good place to start testing from.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#100 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:52 am

Ye morf is right on most stuff and 1v1 this may actually be a disaster.

In 6v6+ or ORVR stealth isn't as influential especially in large scale where going out of guard range is certain death. That is why I think adding group util outside of gank spec would be an intresting change to trial in combination with FP snares.

I also sort of like that it effectivly puts long CD 60s (or20s) on the "no positional" ranged snare and that it comes at the cost of armor ignore spam.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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