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New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

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Sulorie
Posts: 4704

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#71 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 am

Mystry wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:48 am
Korsario wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:46 am
Just wait until you are 40, you are gonna Fin hate it lol, gear gap is like 5000% effectivity, no chance to compete at all.
This. No one believes me but I think RoR is starting to suffer from the same gear bloat that killed Live Warhammer. There's just too much disparity between a fresh 40 with starter gear and a max geared 40.
You mean those r40 2h tanks in duelist gear without talismans? Yes, they are at a disadvantage and still it is their own fault for not using appropriate items.
Why can all other people make it, when they play twinks?
The game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
Anni/merc/ruin set lack wounds, so you counter this with e.g. wounds talismans until you have better gear. Conq/dom are rather easy to get, since you only need an ok-ish rr to convert down currency. Apparently rr is important to get better gear faster.
Dying is no option.

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Madae
Posts: 19

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#72 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am

Sulorie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 am
The game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
You really can't believe this? Yes, the game is about teamwork, but all the teamwork in the world isn't going to save a level 20 from getting murdered by a level 40, and it's not going to help that level 20 actually do anything useful outside of being a body to cap a point. In fact, a level 20 in a rvr group of 40's is likely going to get removed and that spot given to someone who can actually do something.

Sulorie
Posts: 4704

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#73 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 am

Madae wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am
Sulorie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 am
The game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
You really can't believe this? Yes, the game is about teamwork, but all the teamwork in the world isn't going to save a level 20 from getting murdered by a level 40, and it's not going to help that level 20 actually do anything useful outside of being a body to cap a point. In fact, a level 20 in a rvr group of 40's is likely going to get removed and that spot given to someone who can actually do something.
I believe it, because I am doing it a dozen times already.
Level 20 tanks and healers can be amazing with bolster and increased group buffs and obviously DD have to assist others. When you want to contribute more as DD, play scenario and get back to rvr with 25-30. Picking the right content for a certain class at a certain rank for pvp progression is a part of what new players have to learn as well.
Dying is no option.

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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2019

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#74 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:16 am

Madae wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am
Sulorie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 am
The game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
You really can't believe this? Yes, the game is about teamwork, but all the teamwork in the world isn't going to save a level 20 from getting murdered by a level 40, and it's not going to help that level 20 actually do anything useful outside of being a body to cap a point. In fact, a level 20 in a rvr group of 40's is likely going to get removed and that spot given to someone who can actually do something.
Slot talismans in all your gear and use a armor pot and you will be doing much better, promised. No you probably wont kill a full invader player but you also wont explode like a squishy bag of popcorn.

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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2019

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#75 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:21 am

Im in the same situation as you guys. We just started a fresh new party and currently im sitting in annihilator armor on lvl 30x with my warrior priest. I stacked futile strikes at the renown master, equippes the pve jewel set that gives me armor and initiave and im currently using armor and willpower talismans in my gear. I never felt especially weak tbh. I can easily survive lvl 40 choppas using detaunt. Even without using pots atm. So its definately possible. Our tank is just short of lvl 25 and he never complains that hes too squishy. Slot good gear and go for defensive renown points and you should do fine.

Mystry
Posts: 384

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#76 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:09 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 am
You mean those r40 2h tanks in duelist gear without talismans? Yes, they are at a disadvantage and still it is their own fault for not using appropriate items.
Why can all other people make it, when they play twinks?
The game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
Anni/merc/ruin set lack wounds, so you counter this with e.g. wounds talismans until you have better gear. Conq/dom are rather easy to get, since you only need an ok-ish rr to convert down currency. Apparently rr is important to get better gear faster.
Being passive aggressive and facetious doesn't invalidate the point. And I'm not talking about just 2h tanks, but everyone. A SnB pure tank in fresh 40 gear will get nothing done because of gear. A DPS will have zero pressure and burst. A healer won't be able to keep up with the massive amounts of aoe flying around and will crumple instantly when a geared DPS gets on them.

There's too much of a difference between min and max gear. And when you have min gear it's far harder and takes far longer to get RR because you don't win, BECAUSE of that gear.

Lastly, 99.99% of players are not rich, cannot afford expensive talismans and extremely overpriced potions. This contributes further to the gap between the min and the max.

And all of this isn't even addressing the fact that, if you don't like open RvR or massive blob zergs and prefer to stick to smaller fights in scenarios, you can't even GET your main gear because it's locked behind open RvR tokens and you can't convert scenario tokens.

Sulorie
Posts: 4704

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#77 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:10 pm

Mystry wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:09 pm
. And I'm not talking about just 2h tanks, but everyone. A SnB pure tank in fresh 40 gear will get nothing done because of gear. A DPS will have zero pressure and burst. A healer won't be able to keep up with the massive amounts of aoe flying around and will crumple instantly when a geared DPS gets on them.

There's too much of a difference between min and max gear. And when you have min gear it's far harder and takes far longer to get RR because you don't win, BECAUSE of that gear.

Lastly, 99.99% of players are not rich, cannot afford expensive talismans and extremely overpriced potions. This contributes further to the gap between the min and the max.

And all of this isn't even addressing the fact that, if you don't like open RvR or massive blob zergs and prefer to stick to smaller fights in scenarios, you can't even GET your main gear because it's locked behind open RvR tokens and you can't convert scenario tokens.
No, you can only talk about your own experience here, because people in their 30s already gather conq emblems, ruin is a quite good starter def set for tanks and Gunbad can be done with r31+ (?) as well. The first sets with wounds bonus are not far away and then you are fine.

When you don't like rvr zerging, look for smaller fights in rvr, yes those exist. Buff potions are earned by selling random green drops in rvr/sc to vendor and you even make a plus. When you want more gold, go farm like everyone else and learn a crafting profession. Blue talismans are no roadblock at all. You need no purple talismans for ~40 more stats on gear you drop soon anyway.

Those who rush to 40, instead if taking the time to learn the game in lower tiers, are those who struggle the moment they become rank 40. Well, actually they struggle all the way up to 40, because this can be seen on a daily basis.
Dying is no option.

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Madae
Posts: 19

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#78 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:12 pm

No point talking about this anymore, I guess. The people running this don't think anything is wrong, so you'll just have to deal with it.

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:59 pm
I can easily assure you there are no intentions to change the RvR system.

Suggestion directly answered. Now you can cope with that answer, and move on to a different topic.

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Mystry
Posts: 384

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#79 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:24 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:10 pm
No, you can only talk about your own experience here, because people in their 30s already gather conq emblems, ruin is a quite good starter def set for tanks and Gunbad can be done with r31+ (?) as well. The first sets with wounds bonus are not far away and then you are fine.

When you don't like rvr zerging, look for smaller fights in rvr, yes those exist. Buff potions are earned by selling random green drops in rvr/sc to vendor and you even make a plus. When you want more gold, go farm like everyone else and learn a crafting profession. Blue talismans are no roadblock at all. You need no purple talismans for ~40 more stats on gear you drop soon anyway.

Those who rush to 40, instead if taking the time to learn the game in lower tiers, are those who struggle the moment they become rank 40. Well, actually they struggle all the way up to 40, because this can be seen on a daily basis.
I can talk about the experience of many players I've encountered who have quit the game shortly after reaching 40 and found that they were next to useless in ORVR/Scenarios because of the gear gap. And when you have low effectiveness because of that gear gap, you DON'T get drops in PvP because people do not die to undergeared players. Also you're straight up wrong that Ruin is good.

Here's some math, and since you specifically mentioned tank gear, I'll use that:
The Ruin set for SM has the following stats:
3411 Total Armor (2781 from pieces and +630 from set bonus)
173 Total Toughness (118 from pieces and +55 from set bonus)
49 Wounds
31 Initiative
47 Strength
26 Weapon Skill
+7% Block/+2% Parry/+3 Morale Regen (Total from pieces and block set bonus)
It also has +1 to Path of Vaul, not that that matters.

Now for comparison, let's look at the end game Sovereign tank set for SM:
4260 Total Armor
40 Strength
224 Toughness
63 Initiative
37 Weapon Skill
8% Reduction in being Crit/9% Block/2 AP per Sec/1% Reduced Armor Pen
8 HP Per 4 Sec/4 Morale per Sec

For simplicity and equity's sake, I am only counting the same five pieces that Ruin has: Taen, Platecoat, Vambraces, Balancers, and Solerets. I have NOT included the jewelry, cloak or waist slots from Sovereign; the difference would be even higher with them. This also includes up to the 5 piece bonus that Sovereign would get from equipping those 5 pieces. No talismans or pots were used for this comparison.

The difference between starter sets and end game sets is just too large. A fresh 40 has no chance to even influence the fight in any way unless they are a healer and they aren't attacked by anyone, and the only reason that's the case is because heals are not mitigated by anything.

Do not mistake what I am saying: I do not think that players shouldn't get more powerful as they get better gear. What I'm saying is that there is too large of a difference between starter and end game gear. Add that on top of how your "do pvp to get green drops and vendor them" doesn't work when you have starter gear since drops don't happen if no one on the enemy team dies (and they won't if they are geared and you aren't), and you see fresh 40s struggling because they don't HAVE any means to get the ridiculously overpowered talismans and pots that are spammed by high end players. Aside from maybe mindlessly farming PvE which A. many classes are unsuited for and B. is extremely boring and C. PvE isn't even the point of the game; add all this up and you get a ton of people who just reached 40 and then quit a week later because they feel useless.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 95

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#80 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:35 am

Remove rank 40's from T2-3 and make debolster back with overlord/imperator quests. Anni/merce rank 32-34 and conq/domi rr 38-40 and rvr or scs or both should reallly drop 1-2 piece of conq/inva/vang/opressor. Also new rvr inf rewards are must, maybe even scenario inf rewards. Make New sets one drops in rvr another one in scs,similar to rare fortune. I have so many toons lvl 40 that i just dont play and rarely i play anything because solo playing is dead, small scale is close to death. Too sad state the best things in this game! Fortresses needs to be instanced and there needs to always be t2-3 zone open for 16-39 only. Maybe add fourth tactic back to lvl 40 so its even more balanced in t2-3. If you switch tier 4 rvr inf rewards for tier 3 that would be great as well. Maybe make all kinds of potions/liniments/talismans drop in pvp.

With the debolster and overlord/imperator change i would happily log my rank 40 rr 20 characters and just debolster my life away. Maybe to rank 31 and can use renown points 31 when you use debolster on yourself or whatever it was wayback. And at some point they would have good enough rr to jump to action in t4. I really dont see anything negative only positive from this change, but im guessing devs dont agree ? Man it's weird. 10 years ago War live players told devs what they want but they gave us rr100 patch, final nail to the coffin=)
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