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New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

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istvar
Posts: 86

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#81 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:22 pm

Mystry wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:24 pm
Sulorie wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:10 pm No, you can only talk about your own experience here, because people in their 30s already gather conq emblems, ruin is a quite good starter def set for tanks and Gunbad can be done with r31+ (?) as well. The first sets with wounds bonus are not far away and then you are fine.

When you don't like rvr zerging, look for smaller fights in rvr, yes those exist. Buff potions are earned by selling random green drops in rvr/sc to vendor and you even make a plus. When you want more gold, go farm like everyone else and learn a crafting profession. Blue talismans are no roadblock at all. You need no purple talismans for ~40 more stats on gear you drop soon anyway.

Those who rush to 40, instead if taking the time to learn the game in lower tiers, are those who struggle the moment they become rank 40. Well, actually they struggle all the way up to 40, because this can be seen on a daily basis.
I can talk about the experience of many players I've encountered who have quit the game shortly after reaching 40 and found that they were next to useless in ORVR/Scenarios because of the gear gap. And when you have low effectiveness because of that gear gap, you DON'T get drops in PvP because people do not die to undergeared players. Also you're straight up wrong that Ruin is good.

Here's some math, and since you specifically mentioned tank gear, I'll use that:
The Ruin set for SM has the following stats:
3411 Total Armor (2781 from pieces and +630 from set bonus)
173 Total Toughness (118 from pieces and +55 from set bonus)
49 Wounds
31 Initiative
47 Strength
26 Weapon Skill
+7% Block/+2% Parry/+3 Morale Regen (Total from pieces and block set bonus)
It also has +1 to Path of Vaul, not that that matters.

Now for comparison, let's look at the end game Sovereign tank set for SM:
4260 Total Armor
40 Strength
224 Toughness
63 Initiative
37 Weapon Skill
8% Reduction in being Crit/9% Block/2 AP per Sec/1% Reduced Armor Pen
8 HP Per 4 Sec/4 Morale per Sec

For simplicity and equity's sake, I am only counting the same five pieces that Ruin has: Taen, Platecoat, Vambraces, Balancers, and Solerets. I have NOT included the jewelry, cloak or waist slots from Sovereign; the difference would be even higher with them. This also includes up to the 5 piece bonus that Sovereign would get from equipping those 5 pieces. No talismans or pots were used for this comparison.

The difference between starter sets and end game sets is just too large. A fresh 40 has no chance to even influence the fight in any way unless they are a healer and they aren't attacked by anyone, and the only reason that's the case is because heals are not mitigated by anything.

Do not mistake what I am saying: I do not think that players shouldn't get more powerful as they get better gear. What I'm saying is that there is too large of a difference between starter and end game gear. Add that on top of how your "do pvp to get green drops and vendor them" doesn't work when you have starter gear since drops don't happen if no one on the enemy team dies (and they won't if they are geared and you aren't), and you see fresh 40s struggling because they don't HAVE any means to get the ridiculously overpowered talismans and pots that are spammed by high end players. Aside from maybe mindlessly farming PvE which A. many classes are unsuited for and B. is extremely boring and C. PvE isn't even the point of the game; add all this up and you get a ton of people who just reached 40 and then quit a week later because they feel useless.
The main difference between how the two of you experience the game is not gear or player skill.

One of you two is a PuG player, the other one doesn’t play without a premade farming said PuGs, unless he solos on a DPS arch mage :D

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Winterbeats
Posts: 14

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#82 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:00 pm

saupreusse wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:16 am
Madae wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am
Sulorie wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 amThe game is about teamwork, the gear of the individual player matters much less.
You really can't believe this? Yes, the game is about teamwork, but all the teamwork in the world isn't going to save a level 20 from getting murdered by a level 40, and it's not going to help that level 20 actually do anything useful outside of being a body to cap a point. In fact, a level 20 in a rvr group of 40's is likely going to get removed and that spot given to someone who can actually do something.
Slot talismans in all your gear and use a armor pot and you will be doing much better, promised. No you probably wont kill a full invader player but you also wont explode like a squishy bag of popcorn.
I'm able to craft my own talismans, but armor pots are prohibitively expensive for a new player....I got a few from chapter rewards, but haven't seen one in a while. Yesterday, there was a premade of level 39s running SCs. I have the best armor for my level and full talismans, and I was killed in two hits. There is a disconnect here.

Mystry
Suspended
Posts: 445

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#83 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:57 pm

istvar wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:22 pm The main difference between how the two of you experience the game is not gear or player skill.

One of you two is a PuG player, the other one doesn’t play without a premade farming said PuGs, unless he solos on a DPS arch mage :D
Pretty much. Premade players are amazingly ignorant of the realities of the game.
Winterbeats wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:00 pm I'm able to craft my own talismans, but armor pots are prohibitively expensive for a new player....I got a few from chapter rewards, but haven't seen one in a while. Yesterday, there was a premade of level 39s running SCs. I have the best armor for my level and full talismans, and I was killed in two hits. There is a disconnect here.
Absolute truth. This is why I have argued and advocated for armor pots to be removed from day one. I saw the writing on the wall the moment I started playing RoR. And this is coming from someone who makes his own armor pots and uses them; I STILL want them gone. They unbalance the playing field so badly its insane. One armor pot invalidates all armor reduction abilities (since they don't stack), the only exception being Slayer's Forced Opportunity since that reduces about 1000 when the armor pot provides 880. Maybe Destro has a similar one, I don't know.

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saupreusse
Developer
Posts: 2386

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#84 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:32 am

I simply dont have the same experience. Its no problem for me as a healer to survive high level choppas, squigs etc. Sure i cant win a sc solo against a premade. But in this case you cant really do much but queueing the pug scenario. But if its such a pain for you i advise you to find a tank and a healer, or better a guild to play with.
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istvar
Posts: 86

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#85 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:58 pm

saupreusse wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:32 am I simply dont have the same experience. Its no problem for me as a healer to survive high level choppas, squigs etc. Sure i cant win a sc solo against a premade. But in this case you cant really do much but queueing the pug scenario. But if its such a pain for you i advise you to find a tank and a healer, or better a guild to play with.
LOL. How much dmg do you have to deal with as a healer if you position properly compared to a melee class?
Im not saying either of you is wrong or right but this comment right here is pretty brainless

Winterbeats
Posts: 14

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#86 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:22 pm

saupreusse wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:32 am I simply dont have the same experience. Its no problem for me as a healer to survive high level choppas, squigs etc. Sure i cant win a sc solo against a premade. But in this case you cant really do much but queueing the pug scenario. But if its such a pain for you i advise you to find a tank and a healer, or better a guild to play with.
I am Rune Priest? What do you mean find a healer?

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Dackle
Posts: 140

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#87 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:46 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:06 pm
Dackle wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:03 pm Other than the effort, which is not snap your fingers task I understand this, what is the downside to making t2, the one tier with no outer keep walls, a separate (mid-tier) bracket? Could it be a ghost town, too hard to push the zone? Would the end tier campaign accelerate too fast? I am just brain storming myself to see what the downsides would be.
It's not worth the time and effort when we're largely happy with the current campaign. Why change something that we enjoy and find to be working well? People need to take some hints from this entire thread and improve their game. It is very possible to be competitive in the T4 bracket at low levels.
Nobody I know likes fighting in T2. Thanks for your response. L2P got it!

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saupreusse
Developer
Posts: 2386

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#88 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:40 am

The real pain is when you are level 40 in merc anni gear matched against ppl rr63+.we Lost like 5 sc in a row and got 0 kills. In this regard im glad the conq and vanq prices will come down so conq might finally become the entry level set for lategame even for players that levelled while there was an x2 event.
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Elemint
Posts: 258

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#89 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:03 am

I feel sad the new players don't get to experience the chill of a t2-t3 zone with 50-200 people in it, all approximately the same level. Instead they go from seeing a couple of abilities in t1 to every single ability in the game as soon as they step foot in t4. And the gear gap IS insane, no matter what people tell you. Even rank 40s in starter gears vanish in 2 seconds if they make a mistake, much less a 23 engi staring at the walls of Black Crag, trying to find his way out. The only threat to BiS geared, high renown (good) players now are other BiS geared, high renown (good) players, rest is cannon fodder.

Winterbeats
Posts: 14

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#90 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:18 am

Elemint wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:03 am I feel sad the new players don't get to experience the chill of a t2-t3 zone with 50-200 people in it, all approximately the same level. Instead they go from seeing a couple of abilities in t1 to every single ability in the game as soon as they step foot in t4. And the gear gap IS insane, no matter what people tell you. Even rank 40s in starter gears vanish in 2 seconds if they make a mistake, much less a 23 engi staring at the walls of Black Crag, trying to find his way out. The only threat to BiS geared, high renown (good) players now are other BiS geared, high renown (good) players, rest is cannon fodder.
I played AoR during it's heyday, so maybe that is why it's such a shame to see RoR is what is actually is. The more I play RoR, I notice how it's really nothing like AoR ,and RoR isn't trying to maintain or capture what made WAR AoR so fun. The melding of T2-T4 isn't fun, everyday more and more threads from new players voice this concern, with the vets coming in and saying "get gud", your gear sucks, make a premade, make a crafting alt, etc, to be half way decent.

Well none of those things were necessary in T1, because we were playing the game as it was meant to be played, with people on our level, with no insane skill or gear gap. Having to cheese the system by being "bolstered" is just a band aid over a mortal wound. Until they actually look at the melded tiers, and separate them, they will bleed out new players.

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