Mara Proposal

[Grock]

I would like to know how choppy viability is suffering if you could expand on this.

They are ok for AoE, but outclassed by others pretty much everywhere else
Compared to Slayers they miss ID, Rampage and Push-for-More, so their sustained pressure is way lower. WEs, DoKs and mSH all bring comparable or higher damage while also being tougher or having more utility or both. Maras are catching up since buffs as well.

Maybe im wrong, but thats the impression i got over time

[Arbich]

I don't get why you want to look at healdebuff in isolation. Balance wise you should look as how Mara performs in comparison to other destro dps (choppa, msh, mdok, we, dps shaman, rsh, dps zealot, Magus, sorc) and maybe dps potential of destro tanks.
If Mara underperforms in comparison (why? Against which dps?), he needs a buff. If Mara overperforms (why? Against which dps?) he needs a nerf.
What order classes have or have not doesn't matter at all, except you claim that the actual healdebuff for Mara result in a general realm-imbalance in favor of order (and even if this is the case, this doesn't necessitate a buff to Mara unless he is underperforming in comparison to the other destro dps).

If you constantly buff somewhat lacking underperforming elements of different classes, it will result in power creep and balance nightmare.

[Stophy22]

I would like to know how choppy viability is suffering if you could expand on this.

They are ok for AoE, but outclassed by others pretty much everywhere else
Compared to Slayers they miss ID, Rampage and Push-for-More, so their sustained pressure is way lower. WEs, DoKs and mSH all bring comparable or higher damage while also being tougher or having more utility or both. Maras are catching up since buffs as well.

Maybe im wrong, but thats the impression i got over time

In my experience Mara is useful for one thing (talking about cities) and that’s his morale drain, which has changed a little. Ever since that change Mara has taken a bit of a backseat and melee squigs have been huge. Now Destro lives in a pretty big “waaagh” and “chop fasta” meta so classes like squig herder and sorcs can spam their abilities with 10-5second cds. So choppa is very viable as a Destro dps not only for cities but in ever regards simply because of his chop fasta. I think choppa damage is pretty good and is definitely higher than Mara so that puts him above as well. While Mara takes a back seat because he doesn’t have the same morale drain no brain to him anymore.

Again I don’t mind the changes to Mara morale drain, I really like wave of terror but this is how it’s been over on Destro for a while.

I’m 6v6 someone needs a heal debuff so choppa already beats Mara in that regard. I’m not so certain to talk about 6v6 meta but one thing is Mara can’t bring a heal debuff without spec and his armor debuff can be replaced with a BG and wounds debuff can be replaced with BG. Crit debuff also replaces with BG. So Mara isn’t really offering anything unique, not even good damage.

Personally how I see it currently playing Destro

[Stophy22]

I don't get why you want to look at healdebuff in isolation. Balance wise you should look as how Mara performs in comparison to other destro dps (choppa, msh, mdok, we, dps shaman, rsh, dps zealot, Magus, sorc) and maybe dps potential of destro tanks.
If Mara underperforms in comparison (why? Against which dps?), he needs a buff. If Mara overperforms (why? Against which dps?) he needs a nerf.
What order classes have or have not doesn't matter at all, except you claim that the actual healdebuff for Mara result in a general realm-imbalance in favor of order (and even if this is the case, this doesn't necessitate a buff to Mara unless he is underperforming in comparison to the other destro dps).

If you constantly buff somewhat lacking underperforming elements of different classes, it will result in power creep and balance nightmare.

Balance wise I’m looking at heal debuffs.

The proposal isn’t about Mara damage, it’s not about Mara damage vs his faction vs other faction. That’s someone else’s proposal if you want.

The proposal is about heal debuffs and why Mara (and white lion) are the only (dps) classes without a 9-5pt ability heal debuff. Healdebuffs are huge in order to kill someone and they’re pretty big for any sort of organized 6 man group, whether it be roaming or sc. Seeing as mara has to sacrifice a tactic slot to get his heal debuff when he is a tactic heavy class and his viability is already lower than other mdps on Destro side since his amazing tools can be replaced or substituted by more viable classes I thought it would be fair to look at this as a way to bring a little bit of viability and life to a class that is a bit on the back burner.

I haven’t called Mara weak, or underpowered or anything of the sort.

I have called the Mara lacking compared to his other mdps both on his side and the other.

That is all I’m not here to balance marauder and fix the class viability. Just advocate for something that I see as unfair and explain why it should get the same treatments as other classes. Maybe it’ll help with balance and class viability and I tried to make fair proposals that were not one sided.

I don’t believe there is a realm imbalance and never stated such. I believe there is an imbalance for Mara as a dps role because he lacks something vital for a dps class thus making him undesirable. I don’t think what I’m proposing is so disgusting either since the way Mara has to work as a dps class. Stance dancing. Very specific spec. Having to get certain tools otherwise he actually has nothing important.

If I had hard facts about Mara underperforming as a dps and and his dmg is too low or anything of the sort I would of made a proposal about that. But in summary;

other classes get 9point ability healdebuffs, Mara doesn’t. Mara should be given 9-5point heal debuff and here is why.

Hopefully that explain it a little better.

[jokerspsycho]

I dont think mara isnt being taken into any coordination WBs because of not having a 50% IHD. They are also the only class with a baseline 25% IHD iirc. They are also the only class with an AoE kd. Why does one class need every utility in the game?

I like the idea that for the sake of balance WL needs a baseline 25% HD.

[Stophy22]

I dont think mara isnt being taken into any coordination WBs because of not having a 50% IHD. They are also the only class with a baseline 25% IHD iirc. They are also the only class with an AoE kd. Why does one class need every utility in the game?

I like the idea that for the sake of balance WL needs a baseline 25% HD.

I never said mara isn't being taken into warband play because his lack of heal debuff, haha. I said hes not taking into some 6v6 environments where he could be taken because he can be substituted because all of his amazing tools and utility that everyone is claiming he has can be replaced by a tank (blackguard) or another dps.

baseline 25% ihd is absolutely useless, unless in t1. Aoe KD is in monstro tree, which again, I am not talking about. The changes I proposed were for Savage/Brutality marauder which is completely different than a WB Monstro spec Insane whispers Wave of Monstrosity morale drain Monstrorauder. Personally I think monstro-rauder is in a pretty cool place, having to switch into brutality for his morale drain gives him his stance dance playstyle to even his Monstro hermit spec.

One class does not have every utility in the game nor would he be given every utility in the game if he got a 50% ihd 5-9point ability.

Since everyone seems to keep saying marauder has all these amazing tools I'll explain what a marauder has for utility in the average Savage/Brut spec:

Spoiler:

Disarm (after parry happens)
KD (after disrupt happens)
Toughness Debuff
Dmg on melee ability use
Dmg on magic ability use
Armor Debuff (Very good tool, one of mara's very big +'s)
Enemy gains actionpoints 50% slower debuff
Heal debuff (if he uses tactic)
Crit increase (single target) if he uses tactic
Wounds Debuff (13pts into savage tree so he can get this or...)
Aoe Morale drain (13pts into Brutality tree so he can get this or...)
aoe interrupt is worthy of note too

Alright now in perspective a WE can do:

Spoiler:

KD
Disarm (after parry)
Morale Drain (is a KD as well)
Toughness/Weaponskill debuff
Heal Debuff (incoming and outgoing depending on kiss used)
dmg on movement
dmg on melee ability
dmg on magic use
Silence
6 second stagger
action point shenanigans

Anyway im not terribly knowledgeable of WE specs so they might have to give a few of these up to get the others but the point still stands. Mara's "amazing tool kit" is something I'm tired of seeing though. As you can see his tools are more so shared with another class. I'm not saying mara is useless and shouldn't be brought and you should just bring a WE. What I am saying is he isn't as special and unique as everyone seems to think. To go one further the things that make mara unique or noteworthy are his Wounds debuff, Armor debuff, Crit buff/debuff and probably 10second root morale 1. All of the unique/noteworthy stuff I just said can be replaced by a Crimson Death BG.

Thunderous Blow Vs Hastened Doom
Cutting Claw Vs Horrific Wound @100hate (and if you even want to go further Demo strike because they stack for a higher value than mara debuff.)
Flames of Fate vs Champ Challenge (can't use demo strike but still worthy of note since most 6 man groups have 2 tanks!)
Deeply Impaled vs Crimson Death

Yes some values are a little lower, some values a little higher. Some abilities AOE, some abilities have different drawbacks/requirements but regardless my point still stands: Mara's "amazing tool kit" is an empty statement with the above information.

[Nefarian78]

They are ok for AoE, but outclassed by others pretty much everywhere else
Compared to Slayers they miss ID, Rampage and Push-for-More, so their sustained pressure is way lower. WEs, DoKs and mSH all bring comparable or higher damage while also being tougher or having more utility or both. Maras are catching up since buffs as well.

Maybe im wrong, but thats the impression i got over time

While you're right choppas are pretty much outclassed by every other melee dps for 6v6, giving marauders a baseline HD isn't going to hurt their viability. Why? Because Maras, even after the PSM buffs are completely worthless in 6v6. They'd still be worthless after having a baseline HD, unless the tactic is replaced by something absolutely insane (it won't, just like giving maras a baseline HD won't happen).

They bring debuffs that are slightly better than those of a BG but not enough to make a difference, absolutely 0 burst damage and a broken pull that barely works on targets that are standing still.

Choppa is worthless in 6v6 for different reasons. They're supposed to be a High Risk High Reward glass cannon but unfortunately for them they're just a High Risk class with Low to Average Rewards. Why even bother taking a class like that when WEs use the same exact concept but actually make it work, while at the same time having a 1200 m2 drop and kisses that outshine choppa's utilities completely?

TLDR:

Even if this suggestion was to happen, nothing would change at all.

[Stophy22]

They are ok for AoE, but outclassed by others pretty much everywhere else
Compared to Slayers they miss ID, Rampage and Push-for-More, so their sustained pressure is way lower. WEs, DoKs and mSH all bring comparable or higher damage while also being tougher or having more utility or both. Maras are catching up since buffs as well.

Maybe im wrong, but thats the impression i got over time

While you're right choppas are pretty much outclassed by every other melee dps for 6v6, giving marauders a baseline HD isn't going to hurt their viability. Why? Because Maras, even after the PSM buffs are completely worthless in 6v6. They'd still be worthless after having a baseline HD, unless the tactic is replaced by something absolutely insane (it won't, just like giving maras a baseline HD won't happen).

They bring debuffs that are slightly better than those of a BG but not enough to make a difference, absolutely 0 burst damage and a broken pull that barely works on targets that are standing still.

Choppa is worthless in 6v6 for different reasons. They're supposed to be a High Risk High Reward glass cannon but unfortunately for them they're just a High Risk class with Low to Average Rewards. Why even bother taking a class like that when WEs use the same exact concept but actually make it work, while at the same time having a 1200 m2 drop and kisses that outshine choppa's utilities completely?

TLDR:

Even if this suggestion was to happen, nothing would change at all.

Maybe but it’s a start at least and that’s what I’m looking for, a start to some changes not an end all be all final product.

[jokerspsycho]

Spoiler:

Disarm (after parry happens)
KD (after disrupt happens)
Toughness Debuff
Dmg on melee ability use
Dmg on magic ability use
Armor Debuff (Very good tool, one of mara's very big +'s)
Enemy gains actionpoints 50% slower debuff
Heal debuff (if he uses tactic)
Crit increase (single target) if he uses tactic
Wounds Debuff (13pts into savage tree so he can get this or...)
Aoe Morale drain (13pts into Brutality tree so he can get this or...)
aoe interrupt is worthy of note too

Alright now in perspective a WE can do:

Spoiler:

KD
Disarm (after parry)
Morale Drain (is a KD as well)
Toughness/Weaponskill debuff
Heal Debuff (incoming and outgoing depending on kiss used)
dmg on movement
dmg on melee ability
dmg on magic use
Silence
6 second stagger
action point shenanigans

Are you suggesting giving mara heal debuff bc we has it or giving we the other tools that mara has? Bc those lists arent to similiar. Or are u suggesting all classes should have the same debuffs?

U also said, [paraphrasing] "these can be covered by other classes" which also applies to mara not having a 50% IHD.

I personally dont see how mara needs every utility in the game which is touted as a group game. At least that's what I hear as a wh/we when asking for changes. "Its a group game group with people to bring what you dont have.

[teiloh]

Marauders have a lot of things other MDPS don't have and things no one has period outside of morales (AOE knockdown).

Having a core 25% heal debuff is good. Tainted Claw steals heals (still mad they stole my SM idea and gave it to Marauders, haha).

I don't think the Marauder needs much other than a few minor tweaks, like most classes.