Recent Topics

Ads

thunderous blow

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: thunderous blow

Post#51 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:57 pm

Grock wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm I aint gonna read this whole thread, but the point is in its current nerfed state Thunderous Blow is completely irrelevant because other classes bring equal or better functionality with easier access, so why would anyone ever spec it outside of solo play?

Its not a question of giving destro more stuff, it is about making the ability a competitive choice when considering your build.
It's actually funny because when I suggested to move in down to 5 points in the heal debuff thread, Marauder players were up in arms about suggesting to put a useless ability as a 5 point ability instead of leaving it at 13 points where nobody cares about it.

You read that right, Marauder players literally don't care about that ability so much and it's so shitty that they want it at 13 points so its existence doesn't mess up any builds. How wacky is that.

Ads
User avatar
wildwindblows
Posts: 423

Re: thunderous blow

Post#52 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:05 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm
wildwindblows wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:15 pm

I also don't think the Marauder needs a damage buff at all, and I mostly agree with your statement in general. The SW clearly has some issues, but it's not raw DPS that is the classes main issue at the moment.

Look, I totally get why you come into these threads and do what you do. I understand wanting to ensure the game is balanced properly. You are just way off when it comes to the Marauder class and what this class can do and how it functions. What you aren't way off on is that the class doesn't need massive buffs. I actually tend to agree with you on many of the Marauder suggestions/balance proposals, they are usually quite terrible and/or overpowered suggestions.

However, what I don't agree with you on is that the class needs nothing. It definitely could use some small QOL tweaks as many classes could in this game to make it more viable in more settings. It may even need to get some nerfs, to get those tweaks (to the point of utility/survivability and trade offs), and again, that's fine. But what irks me is to read your hyberpole about things like "undeserved damage buffs" (even post buff, Mara damage is still low/medium in comparison to all other DPS classes), and that "the pull is good", and **** like that. You can make your points without implying that the class is perfect and needs no tweaks ever, because that's a bad take and I know you know that it's not correct. Making illogical arguments that the Mara "shouldn't" do WL levels of burst because of their "extra survivability" is just such a silly take. That's not why the Marauder shouldn't do WL levels of burst, there's actually a few good reasons why it shouldn't but monstro proc isn't the reason, as stated above, Pounce alone is far better than Monstro proc can ever be (unless Monstro proc allows you to teleport across the battlefield as a get out of jailf free card).

So I hope you understand my viewpoint. I'm not agreeing with the other Marauders, nor am I agreeing with you. I have a different viewpoint, somewhere in the middle of these two extremes that "the glass is garbage" and "the class is perfect". Neither of these extreme hybperbolic opinions is realistic at all. The truth is that the class is "ok", and it's fine to play, it's not junk, nor is it amazing. Maybe that's ok and we should be proposing to bring other classes down to the reality that is the Marauder's level of balance (I think this is more your viewpoint), rather than to try to take the Marauder up to levels of overbalance (not my viewpoint either).

I do recall you saying that you were a purist to Mythic's vision, so I am a little confused on how that relates to your Marauder opinions, since you don't seem to want to take the class back to the original vision of it on live (I think I know why, for good reasons). In theory, you should be for the TB swap back to where it was originally, as that was the design of the class by Mythic no (well, to be fair, the original TB was the most overpowered skill in the entire game, but almost nobody remembers it now).
I totally agree with you. TB was the most powerfull wound db in the game and it sound like a lot. However, the truth is mara has only these debuffs and now mara lost the one of the strongest debuff ability and this was not compensated in any way.
Well not just TB, it's been a long trend of this even before ROR.

Almost every single one of the Marauder's debuffs has been heavily nerfed. Some of them for very good reasons. However, they were probably in general slightly over-nerfed. The Marauder should likely still have "good debuffs", not just "the same as everyone else and sometimes worse".
Yeah, I can say as a main mara player, don't waste your time for mara. There are better dps classes like w.e, choppa, dps dok, dps boi dps bg. Don't fall mara hole.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: thunderous blow

Post#53 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:11 pm

wildwindblows wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:05 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm
wildwindblows wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 pm

I totally agree with you. TB was the most powerfull wound db in the game and it sound like a lot. However, the truth is mara has only these debuffs and now mara lost the one of the strongest debuff ability and this was not compensated in any way.
Well not just TB, it's been a long trend of this even before ROR.

Almost every single one of the Marauder's debuffs has been heavily nerfed. Some of them for very good reasons. However, they were probably in general slightly over-nerfed. The Marauder should likely still have "good debuffs", not just "the same as everyone else and sometimes worse".
Yeah, I can say as a main mara player, don't waste your time for mara. There are better dps classes like w.e, choppa, dps dok, dps boi dps bg. Don't fall mara hole.
Hah well I played it at it's lowest point, and it used to actually be way worse than it is now. There was a period of time post the debuffs nerfs and pre-damage buffs where the class was basically literally useless. At this point in time, the Marauder didn't have stance procs, impale was a back positional only with no armor ignore, the Marauder crit damage tactic was crazy nonsense that didn't work, etc.. and they had all their debuffs heavily nerfed. That was way worse than it is now.

User avatar
teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: thunderous blow

Post#54 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 pm

Which ultimately means more viable group setups for Destro, including the possibility of stacking -240 total wounds.

User avatar
wildwindblows
Posts: 423

Re: thunderous blow

Post#55 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:18 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:11 pm
wildwindblows wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:05 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm

Well not just TB, it's been a long trend of this even before ROR.

Almost every single one of the Marauder's debuffs has been heavily nerfed. Some of them for very good reasons. However, they were probably in general slightly over-nerfed. The Marauder should likely still have "good debuffs", not just "the same as everyone else and sometimes worse".
Yeah, I can say as a main mara player, don't waste your time for mara. There are better dps classes like w.e, choppa, dps dok, dps boi dps bg. Don't fall mara hole.
Hah well I played it at it's lowest point, and it used to actually be way worse than it is now. There was a period of time post the debuffs nerfs and pre-damage buffs where the class was basically literally useless. At this point in time, the Marauder didn't have stance procs, impale was a back positional only with no armor ignore, the Marauder crit damage tactic was crazy nonsense that didn't work, etc.. and they had all their debuffs heavily nerfed. That was way worse than it is now.
I'm playing mara for 5 years and mara is always be a support class. I cant say he is dps.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: thunderous blow

Post#56 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:20 pm

teiloh wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 pm Which ultimately means more viable group setups for Destro, including the possibility of stacking -240 total wounds.
I'm not asking for the old TB back personally, nor do I want any wounds debuffs in this game to stack.

I actually just want it back as a 5 point ability at the current value, maybe boost it up to "better" than now but not the old 160. 120 - no stacking? Who knows, I don't really care about TB. Frankly the devs could just remove it and replace it with something useful and that would be nice too.

It's functionally on this server, not specced and generally worthless at the moment, so almost anything would be better than the current TB unless its equally worthless.

User avatar
teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: thunderous blow

Post#57 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:58 pm

Lots of classes have **** abilities though, I can understand in principle some things could be tweaked but there are far more pressing balance issues to address with limited resources

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: thunderous blow

Post#58 » Thu May 28, 2020 12:10 am

teiloh wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:58 pm Lots of classes have **** abilities though, I can understand in principle some things could be tweaked but there are far more pressing balance issues to address with limited resources
Yea I mean that's also fair. Put it down the list I guess, devs do need to prioritize properly. Marauder tweaks are hardly pressing issues.

Creating processes for feature/enhancement/bug fix requests is part of my job/career functions, you'll got a lot of requests in any software organization, question is really how do you prioritize them and add them to the roadmap in a sensible way that maximizes efficiency while reducing overhead.

Ads
Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: thunderous blow

Post#59 » Thu May 28, 2020 9:02 am

So between boredom and insomnia, wanted to post this, a tale of the old original Thunderous Blows, for any Marauder players who didn't play WAR at release.

So at release, Thunderous Blows was a 5 point mastery ability, same icon it has now (and maybe similar damage, I forgot how hard it hit), in the Savagery path.

However, Thunderous Blows was not a wounds debuff at this time. It was actually one of the most frustrating and overpowered skills to fight against in the entire game (outside of the crazy AoE spam at the time). What Thunderous Blows was, was a build time increaser!

A build time increaser!? That's it? We have those in the game now you might say. Well yes, indeed we do, classes like the Chosen even get AoE build time increasers. However, Thunderous Blows was unique in it's functionality as it was the only build time increaser that gave a +1 second build time to all abilities.

Not all spells. All abilities.

What this means is that it gave every melee ability, every action, everything you can possibly do using a skill, a 1 second cast time (that can be pushed back of course, and/or even interrupted). In these days, the Marauder was a nightmare to fight in any small scale engagement. 1v1 a Mara? You'd be lucky if you actually got to use any of your skills.

Furthermore, unlike the current build time increasers, Thunderous Blows was not percentaged based as I mentioned above, it was always a flat 1 second increase, so it also impacted non-instant cast abilities, such as spells with build times. A 1 second cast became 2, a 2 became 3, and so on and so forth.

Eventually (it didn't take that long, roughly I'm going to say 9-12 months after release), Thunderous Blows was changed into the old version of the 160 wounds debuff. At the time, the Marauder community was not happy (nobody is ever happy with nerfs), but in retrospect that skill was so horribly broken and made playing the game so unfun for everyone else that it just had to be changed.

Most people know the rest: It was a 160 wounds debuff, it was a good skill, but not considered to be too OP on live (and it didn't stack, just over-wrote other wounds debuffs), and it remained at 5 points in the mastery path. In ROR, it was changed to be 13 points and to reduce the wounds debuff value to 100, during a period of time in which T2 was the highest level of content and most people were running around with 4-6k wounds. And that is how we got to where it is today, and why threads like this exist.

#cantsleep

User avatar
wildwindblows
Posts: 423

Re: thunderous blow

Post#60 » Thu May 28, 2020 9:49 am

Foofmonger wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:02 am So between boredom and insomnia, wanted to post this, a tale of the old original Thunderous Blows, for any Marauder players who didn't play WAR at release.

So at release, Thunderous Blows was a 5 point mastery ability, same icon it has now (and maybe similar damage, I forgot how hard it hit), in the Savagery path.

However, Thunderous Blows was not a wounds debuff at this time. It was actually one of the most frustrating and overpowered skills to fight against in the entire game (outside of the crazy AoE spam at the time). What Thunderous Blows was, was a build time increaser!

A build time increaser!? That's it? We have those in the game now you might say. Well yes, indeed we do, classes like the Chosen even get AoE build time increasers. However, Thunderous Blows was unique in it's functionality as it was the only build time increaser that gave a +1 second build time to all abilities.

Not all spells. All abilities.

What this means is that it gave every melee ability, every action, everything you can possibly do using a skill, a 1 second cast time (that can be pushed back of course, and/or even interrupted). In these days, the Marauder was a nightmare to fight in any small scale engagement. 1v1 a Mara? You'd be lucky if you actually got to use any of your skills.

Furthermore, unlike the current build time increasers, Thunderous Blows was not percentaged based as I mentioned above, it was always a flat 1 second increase, so it also impacted non-instant cast abilities, such as spells with build times. A 1 second cast became 2, a 2 became 3, and so on and so forth.

Eventually (it didn't take that long, roughly I'm going to say 9-12 months after release), Thunderous Blows was changed into the old version of the 160 wounds debuff. At the time, the Marauder community was not happy (nobody is ever happy with nerfs), but in retrospect that skill was so horribly broken and made playing the game so unfun for everyone else that it just had to be changed.

Most people know the rest: It was a 160 wounds debuff, it was a good skill, but not considered to be too OP on live (and it didn't stack, just over-wrote other wounds debuffs), and it remained at 5 points in the mastery path. In ROR, it was changed to be 13 points and to reduce the wounds debuff value to 100, during a period of time in which T2 was the highest level of content and most people were running around with 4-6k wounds. And that is how we got to where it is today, and why threads like this exist.

#cantsleep
TB is 95 wound db actually, it applies 100 wound db if you go full savagery tree (15 point) :_(

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests