[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[Scrilian]

Magus are fine with the newest addition to the game - Blink

Spoiler:

lol at that my fail miss-click opener

[Cornerback]

Well Oiled Machine tactic slotted=instant turret

IMHO, you shouldnt be forced to waste a tactic on this.

In a highly mobile, always changing environment, a stationary pet which even forces you to stand still while being recast, simply isnt up to date anymore.

[Qaulthir]

I've read the entire thread, and as somebody who played a Magus back at launch and beyond... I'll say that I'm happy with Path of Change as it is now. The issues with the static pets in a game that is mostly about mobility still stands, but the most flawed aspect of the Magus has always been the Path of Havoc.

I know: You think I'm crazy. Elemental damage? Should be awesome compared to the engineers physical damage that scales poorly in the endgame, right? Eh... I'd disagree with you. I personally found that while people got more armour in the endgame it was nothing compared to how bloated the resistances started to get, and an engineer which deals physical damage will still be a threat to anybody who is lightly armoured. (Armour pots non withstanding, of course) Sure, the engies could use a little love in their DD path as well so... I'd like to make a minor suggestion that you lot are free to shoot down if it sounds all too silly:

Remove the elemental resistance debuff / armour reduction debuff from the pink horror and the turret, reduce its efficiency, let it stack once or twice and then slap it onto Flickering Red Fire and Gun Blast. The pet / turret would still be useful for the damage buff it provides but it wouldn't be mandatory to break through any end-game resistance / armour bloat. Or, hell... slap the debuff at half, or full, strength onto Bolt of Change and Snipe. It'd probably be more prudent if you want it to retain the 3 sec cast time that it has on the pet.

Either way, suggestion made. Might have more when we hit the glory that is T4.

Edit for clarity: I'm saying that the Magus gets an elemental resistance debuff and the Engine gets an armour reduction debuff. It got kind of... messy up there. Hah.

[peterthepan3]

It's a nice suggestion, but to be honest I feel the debuff itself can be provided by a Chosen and most groups will have at least one Chosen using resist aura.

[Qaulthir]

Sure, but the main purpose of Havoc and Rifleman is to provide long range firepower, a role which is fundamentally flawed on the Magus (in my own, honest, opinion) because it lacks the mechanics which makes single target damage viable on certain other spellcasters.
While there will often be a Chosen in most pushes, it is highly unlikely that there will be one present near the far-away target that you are trying to hit with Bolt of Change, meaning that the debuff suddenly becomes useful... especially if you are on the ramparts of the keep, firing downwards.

Not that I don't see your point though.

Another way of improving upon Havoc would be to take a long, hard, look at the tactics it offers.

Changer's blessing offers no real advantage since the amount of healing it offers is fairly low due to the low damage of Surging Violet Fire. You'd have to spend at least three tactic slots to make a build around that tactic and even then it'd be utterly pathetic compared to other life-leeching abilities.

Suggestion: Why not consider toning it down to 33-20% and slapping it onto Withered Soul? It'd give Havoc Magi a good alternative to Absorb Vitality and it wouldn't be powerful enough to render Absorb Vitality useless by comparison. It may pose a problem when paired with the 15% damage increase tactic, however... but this is the only suggestion that I could think of that doesn't involve nuking the tactic and replacing it with something brand spanking new, though if it had to be something new it'd probably be wise to create a mirror to one of the engineer tactics... like a damage over time on Flickering Red Fire and Surging Violet Fire.

Fiery Wind is a niche tactic which really doesn't do much but add an extra layer of annoyance to an enemy group. You might think that is enough, but thanks to the rather low damage of Surging Violet Fire and the relatively mediocre damage of Flickering Red Fire, it really does nothing to the enemy that a single HoT can't mitigate.

Suggestion: Change it to a 5 feet aoe that hits all targets? It may pose a problem with Havoc Magi being overpowered as all hell when an enemy is trying to push through a narrow corridor in a keep though. I suppose that the original Fiery Wind wouldn't be so bad if Changer's Blessing got changed into mirror of the minor DoT tactic that engineers get in the same tier though, so if that's the case then no changes would have to be made.

Aaaaand... the big finish: Tzeentch's Firestorm. It may deal way more damage now a days than it did back at launch but it is still a fundamentally crippled concept. The only reason why Bright Wizard and Sorcerer channelled AoEs are so good is because of the core mechanic behind their class. Remove that, and you turn the AoE into a joke. Feel free to disagree with me, but I firmly believe that Tzeentch's Firestorm needs some sort of secondary effect to make it worthwhile. What that effect would be without turning it into an overpowered mess though... well... that's a good question indeed. (Or maybe I'm just wrong. Who knows? Who cares?)

That's my rant o' the evening. I do hope that the ideas weren't too biased or dumb.

[Qaulthir]

Doesn't anybody have any thoughts on the matter? Wouldn't mind getting the ball rolling on some useful changes to the class.

[Karast]

You have some interesting ideas.

I personally don't find the dot tactic on engi, hollow points that useful. The damage from it is so low. I always liked the magus first tactic more. Expanding fiery winds to up to 9 enemies within 20ft, and maybe adding snipe / BoC to it would be an interesting change. Give magus / engi some ranged AoE that's direct damage rather than dots. It certainly adds some parity with the middle trees. AoE dots with some added direct damage pressure. Could be a really good change. Good for warband play, and good for groups. It might need to be moved up the trees a bit, but it would be a solid tactic for the end tree spot. Combined with the heal tactic on magus or the dot tactic on engi would make for some interesting builds, if you could spare the tactic spots for both, which is hard to do.

I think the most interesting thing about this though is that it gives magus / engi a bit of uniqueness from the other rdps ST lines.

[peterthepan3]

I honestly feel that Firestorm - though an aesthetically pleasing ability - has no real place in Havoc's tree, nor does it conform with the idea of Havoc being a long-range SINGLE TARGET DD.

Half the problem is that it's on a shorter range which makes no sense. I wouldn't mind using it if it had a secondary effect (it ought to, given how high up in the tree it is), but as it stands it offers nothing really apart from some semi-useful AoE burst that the tree doesn't really excel in.

Bolt of Change should be the hardest-hitting nuke in the game, in my honest opinion, and so it shouldn't hit more than one target - although mirroring it to the WoW Destro Lock's Chaos Bolt stuff seems cool, haha!

To be honest I always thought Firestorm should be changed to spiritual damage, and given to Changing tree. If it also had a secondary effect (a slow, or increased cast timers/5 seconds on CDs whilst in the firestorm), it would make Changing Magi very viable. Would mean that a Changing magus could dump all their AOE dots, put a mist somewhere, and then use Firestorm as their AOE channeled burst. Would give the class a definite niche as a support mid-range AOE DD.

Then Havoc could have access to IFOC in place of Firestorm, make it do elemental damage, et voila:
Daemonology Magi = rift/pbaoe burst
Changing Magi = mid-range AOE pressure/debuff
Havoc = Nuketard/sorc wannabe!

Wanna hear Renork's thoughts, though i think we should probably wait for any changes/etc as we did receive some love recently and the class is relatively okay in the right hands.

interesting conversationings!

[Qaulthir]

The easiest fix to Havoc, if it is truly intended to be a sorc wannabe build, would be to give it a tactic which grants 50% bonus crit damage to all path of Havoc spells. Then you've got the 15% crit tactic... and one that increases crit damage, both of which are no where near as powerful as a sorc or a bright wizard running at full dhar/combustion.

The problem though? Heh... well, where does that leave the engineer? No, I'd argue that viewing havoc as a sorc wannabe build is wrong and that it should instead be tuned towards doing something that the sorc cannot do and the Magus does: Crowd control and loads of debuffs. (In before "Death is the best form of CC" )

I've got more thoughts on the matter so I'll write a proper response to your ideas later.

[Renork]

Focus on utility and not damage. The problem in t4 isn't damage, it's the lack of utility of the class. I will agree though that firestorm has always been an odd thing to have on the havoc tree, plus the damage has always been pitiful even when properly geared.