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-Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

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Poll: What day should the tournament be at?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:52 pm

Saturday 30th 12pm PST/2PM CST/3pm EST/8PM GMT/9PM CET
18
72%
Sunday 31st 11pm PST/1PM CST/2pm EST/7PM GMT/8PM CET
7
28%
Total votes: 25

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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#61 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:04 am

I dont think I was talking about the same thing as you.

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blakokami
Posts: 137

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#62 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:28 am

Markon... you are losing out on the opportunity of a lifetime.

Challenge the staff to make a 6 man for the tourney utilizing 2h tanks in some way and if they win I will personally put forth 2k gold. Let's see if the staff are masters of the game or just dumpster babies. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#63 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:41 am

Spoiler:
CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.

Now if we change it up, and instead bring shielded tanks into it, you're saying it will take longer. But if you're running your same DPS group, how is it any different from it is now? You're still going to hit that DPS/healer target for the same damage you did before. And if you say "Well, then the 2H tank groups won't survive because of the nerfed guard against SnB teams"...but because the other group is running a SnB tank to utilize the full effect of Guard, they're doing LESS damage (and I would argue considerably less)...meaning your survivability is almost identical.

I fail to see how this in any way affects 6v6 in the way you describe. To me, if comps stay the same as they were, kill times are actually quicker. And if one group opts for shield tanks, then they kill slower, making it nearly identical to what it is now. The only situation that it should increase time to kill, is if both groups decide to run shielded tanks.

As far as I can tell, the 6v6 scene is the group LEAST affected by these changes. The players who get hurt are solo puggers such as Volgograd who fight in 1vX situations, or those who fight against warbands in ORvR situations (since the incoming damage from 24vX is tremendously higher than 6v6).

I don't know how I feel exactly about the nerf to guard yet, but honestly...I was quite sick of seeing 2H tanks everywhere shitting on pug groups. I get that from an organized group's viewpoint, it really sucks to have to change it up and I sympathize with that, but the vast majority of players don't have organized groups. If you only cater to the elite, the game really isn't going to be any better off in my opinion.

I vote to play it out and see how it goes before jumping to any conclusions. I'm going to agree with some other players who voiced their opinion and say that shaking up the meta is probably for the better. That's just my 2c, take it or leave it.
Peter is right imo. When you focus burst, the total damage the tanks do compared to the 2 dps is low. For example, 2H IB can roughly do 2,5k damage in 2 GCD if crits. A WE can do over 4k (probably more). A SnB IB, about 1,5-2k. That 500-1000 difference, over the 6k total damage is a lot less for your team than the 25% guard loss.

So the group with 2H tank + WE do 6500 damage mitigated by a SnB 50% guard, so we end up with 3250 damage done.
Conversely, the 2H tank group faces about 5500 damage against the SnB + WE and 2h tank mitigate 25%. They Take 4125 damage. So basically, every burst rotation, they fall behind. And that's for a duo. Double the numbers for a 6 man and the disparity between both setup is magnified.

Its probably an oversimplified explanation/extrapolation, but its probably gonna play out that way.
For it to balance out, the burst rotation of 2H tank would need to be as high as the dps one, which is no where near the case.
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Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#64 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:25 am

CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:27 am I'm not disagreeing that they won't be as good of tanks as SnB (which they shouldn't be anyways). I'm addressing Peter's remarks about 6v6.

I guess I'm inclined to disagree. I don't believe 2H tanks will be unviable. Just maybe not as optimal as they were before in roaming/6v6 situations.

We'll see how it plays out, I suppose.
Well, maybe you could theorize on how you would form a viable group around 2H tanks? Because I thought about it now for a good while and came up with nothing.

Also a damn shame. I equiped my SW just for this tourament over the last couple of weeks and was pretty hyped. But I compeletly agree that a 6on6 tournament is kinda pointless at the moment.

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Darks63
Posts: 651

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#65 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 am

Eathisword wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:41 am
Spoiler:
CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.

Now if we change it up, and instead bring shielded tanks into it, you're saying it will take longer. But if you're running your same DPS group, how is it any different from it is now? You're still going to hit that DPS/healer target for the same damage you did before. And if you say "Well, then the 2H tank groups won't survive because of the nerfed guard against SnB teams"...but because the other group is running a SnB tank to utilize the full effect of Guard, they're doing LESS damage (and I would argue considerably less)...meaning your survivability is almost identical.

I fail to see how this in any way affects 6v6 in the way you describe. To me, if comps stay the same as they were, kill times are actually quicker. And if one group opts for shield tanks, then they kill slower, making it nearly identical to what it is now. The only situation that it should increase time to kill, is if both groups decide to run shielded tanks.

As far as I can tell, the 6v6 scene is the group LEAST affected by these changes. The players who get hurt are solo puggers such as Volgograd who fight in 1vX situations, or those who fight against warbands in ORvR situations (since the incoming damage from 24vX is tremendously higher than 6v6).

I don't know how I feel exactly about the nerf to guard yet, but honestly...I was quite sick of seeing 2H tanks everywhere shitting on pug groups. I get that from an organized group's viewpoint, it really sucks to have to change it up and I sympathize with that, but the vast majority of players don't have organized groups. If you only cater to the elite, the game really isn't going to be any better off in my opinion.

I vote to play it out and see how it goes before jumping to any conclusions. I'm going to agree with some other players who voiced their opinion and say that shaking up the meta is probably for the better. That's just my 2c, take it or leave it.
Peter is right imo. When you focus burst, the total damage the tanks do compared to the 2 dps is low. For example, 2H IB can roughly do 2,5k damage in 2 GCD if crits. A WE can do over 4k (probably more). A SnB IB, about 1,5-2k. That 500-1000 difference, over the 6k total damage is a lot less for your team than the 25% guard loss.

So the group with 2H tank + WE do 6500 damage mitigated by a SnB 50% guard, so we end up with 3250 damage done.
Conversely, the 2H tank group faces about 5500 damage against the SnB + WE and 2h tank mitigate 25%. They Take 4125 damage. So basically, every burst rotation, they fall behind. And that's for a duo. Double the numbers for a 6 man and the disparity between both setup is magnified.

Its probably an oversimplified explanation/extrapolation, but its probably gonna play out that way.
For it to balance out, the burst rotation of 2H tank would need to be as high as the dps one, which is no where near the case.
If shields were given weapon dps values and AAs would that help close the gap at all?
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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#66 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:16 am

Prolly new meta will be 3 dps and 1 snb tank which will require much more skill and awareness from the tank.
Imo all that cc connected to 2h is the biggest ptoblem. Some tanks just dont have decent snb builds so they will become quite obsolete
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#67 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:30 am

Nameless wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:16 am
Imo all that cc connected to 2h is the biggest ptoblem.
No its not, before those changes were ever made 2H was inferior to SnB

HTL, better surviveablity and mitigation, morale pumps among the plus points that existed for SnB specs


The devs made a bone headed decsion plain and simple, 2H specs werent over preforming in any way and some like 2H chosen were already trash
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Elemint
Posts: 258

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#68 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:22 am

Nameless wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:16 am Prolly new meta will be 3 dps and 1 snb tank which will require much more skill and awareness from the tank.
Imo all that cc connected to 2h is the biggest ptoblem. Some tanks just dont have decent snb builds so they will become quite obsolete
No, the 1-3-2 effectiveness somewhat depended on making the offtank go boom. Against WL+WH/ASW or MRD+WE that one tank is just not going to be able to keep up and the range is not going to be able to kite

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Naharis
Posts: 18

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#69 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:16 pm

Unstoppable1776 wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:28 pm Lol look at all the groups that can't handle there meta....without there meta setup they are nothing. I love this guard change
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#70 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:17 pm

Naharis wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:16 pm
Unstoppable1776 wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:28 pm Lol look at all the groups that can't handle there meta....without there meta setup they are nothing. I love this guard change
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:lol: :lol:
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