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-Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

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Poll: What day should the tournament be at?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:52 pm

Saturday 30th 12pm PST/2PM CST/3pm EST/8PM GMT/9PM CET
18
72%
Sunday 31st 11pm PST/1PM CST/2pm EST/7PM GMT/8PM CET
7
28%
Total votes: 25

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Reesh
Posts: 645

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#51 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:00 am

Those that know this game in and out already knows what new meta will be, Peter already said it. Its really not a rocket science, and those who doesn't know it already don't know the game well enough.
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qwerty113
Posts: 272

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#52 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:02 am

Soon i will make grp guys, wait me
Feroze - wh | Faiz - bw
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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#53 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:06 am

Flavorburst wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:32 am
adamthelc wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:17 am Shame.

Seems like it would have been the ideal environment to really gauge the impact of the change.

I would find it hard to believe there is 0 pouting going on in the decision to cancel, but if people dont want to do it that's their choice.

I have no doubt the change will impact this specific aspect of the game. But that doesnt mean it will destroy it. It might get people who only want to play 2h tanks to stop playing, which could decrease participation in a real way.

Or maybe it could increase ttk to a level that most decent healer will be able to outpace and make it boring.

I am interested to know how people actually think it will be destroyed. Or do people just need time to adjust?

In any case what better way would there have been to really showcase the reallity of the status quo? The fact that this community isnt interested in finding out makes me think there is a little pouting. Cant blame them though, big change seemingly out of no where.

Almost just seems like a way to justify putting 2h tanks in queue as dps. Because before this change it was a bit goofy since a 2h tank could arguably be a better tank than one with a shield in a scenario.
I would like to direct you to my previous comment:

"The purpose of a tournament is to play in a competitive setting, not to test things. This change is very drastic and changes a lot of peoples gameplans. They need to adapt to a potentially new meta, which requires practice before competing."
I am not telling people what they should do or even what they ought to do. I am just saying if people showed up and tried to win, it would be worth more than speculation. Even if its educated speculation.

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CeeJay89
Posts: 250

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#54 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am

peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.

Now if we change it up, and instead bring shielded tanks into it, you're saying it will take longer. But if you're running your same DPS group, how is it any different from it is now? You're still going to hit that DPS/healer target for the same damage you did before. And if you say "Well, then the 2H tank groups won't survive because of the nerfed guard against SnB teams"...but because the other group is running a SnB tank to utilize the full effect of Guard, they're doing LESS damage (and I would argue considerably less)...meaning your survivability is almost identical.

I fail to see how this in any way affects 6v6 in the way you describe. To me, if comps stay the same as they were, kill times are actually quicker. And if one group opts for shield tanks, then they kill slower, making it nearly identical to what it is now. The only situation that it should increase time to kill, is if both groups decide to run shielded tanks.

As far as I can tell, the 6v6 scene is the group LEAST affected by these changes. The players who get hurt are solo puggers such as Volgograd who fight in 1vX situations, or those who fight against warbands in ORvR situations (since the incoming damage from 24vX is tremendously higher than 6v6).

I don't know how I feel exactly about the nerf to guard yet, but honestly...I was quite sick of seeing 2H tanks everywhere shitting on pug groups. I get that from an organized group's viewpoint, it really sucks to have to change it up and I sympathize with that, but the vast majority of players don't have organized groups. If you only cater to the elite, the game really isn't going to be any better off in my opinion.

I vote to play it out and see how it goes before jumping to any conclusions. I'm going to agree with some other players who voiced their opinion and say that shaking up the meta is probably for the better. That's just my 2c, take it or leave it.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#55 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:11 am

CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.
Bringing a 25% guard means that you will not be able to keep someone up when they are focused; your role as a 'tank' will be diminished considerably. If DPS actually want to stay afloat (which will net more overall damage than bringing a 2h tank would), then they will pick a tank who can keep them afloat; a tank who can provide them with a 'perma detaunt' effect of 50% damage reduction - a SnB tank.

Fights would be quicker, but this would not be down to opponents outplaying one another (i.e. a good type of quick fight); rather, it would be down to 2h tanks no longer actually being able to fill the role of tank, and thus prevent their guarded target from going down under focus (which they should be able to do).
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Reesh
Posts: 645

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#56 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:17 am

Spoiler:
CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.

Now if we change it up, and instead bring shielded tanks into it, you're saying it will take longer. But if you're running your same DPS group, how is it any different from it is now? You're still going to hit that DPS/healer target for the same damage you did before. And if you say "Well, then the 2H tank groups won't survive because of the nerfed guard against SnB teams"...but because the other group is running a SnB tank to utilize the full effect of Guard, they're doing LESS damage (and I would argue considerably less)...meaning your survivability is almost identical.

I fail to see how this in any way affects 6v6 in the way you describe. To me, if comps stay the same as they were, kill times are actually quicker. And if one group opts for shield tanks, then they kill slower, making it nearly identical to what it is now. The only situation that it should increase time to kill, is if both groups decide to run shielded tanks.

As far as I can tell, the 6v6 scene is the group LEAST affected by these changes. The players who get hurt are solo puggers such as Volgograd who fight in 1vX situations, or those who fight against warbands in ORvR situations (since the incoming damage from 24vX is tremendously higher than 6v6).

I don't know how I feel exactly about the nerf to guard yet, but honestly...I was quite sick of seeing 2H tanks everywhere shitting on pug groups. I get that from an organized group's viewpoint, it really sucks to have to change it up and I sympathize with that, but the vast majority of players don't have organized groups. If you only cater to the elite, the game really isn't going to be any better off in my opinion.

I vote to play it out and see how it goes before jumping to any conclusions. I'm going to agree with some other players who voiced their opinion and say that shaking up the meta is probably for the better. That's just my 2c, take it or leave it.
Wrong, wrong wrong. It's not all about dps of a 2h that provides, even though it is significant, it is about utility in min/max setting. No access to superpunt on 10cd timer on kotbs/chosen, no access to only wounds debuff (outside of dogshit 2h slayer tree) that order has. List goes on.

At the same time, you won't be able to save anyone with 25% damage reduction, that's not possible.

That leaves only one way to go for tanks, SnB. Isn't that **** boring? So that 2h weapon models have go to waste, just "because reasons"? 2h was already a niche and small scale thing anyway.

Tanks are in a group for 3 things: full value guard, cc, challenge. The first one is the most important. Tank that doesn't provide it won't have a spot in a group, ever.
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OldSparky
Posts: 87

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#57 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:19 am

Luth wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:52 am
adamthelc wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:17 am Because before this change it was a bit goofy since a 2h tank could arguably be a better tank than one with a shield in a scenario.
There are many other methods of strengthening s&b tanks in small scale, for example cooldown reduction on CC abilities etc.
The change was decided under the wrong assumption that every 2h tank = DPS.
This might be a bit trivial for some, but just because a weapon looks big, it doesn't mean a huge DPS increase by default.
Also whoever says 2h tank has "best of both worlds" or something along those lines isn't making sense imo. Just because as a tank you have the option to go 2h for a SLIGHT damage increase (yes, even the best dps tank options, namely BO and SM, still hit like wet noodle compared to a proper MDPS) your main role is still TANKING. As I was browsing armory I noticed alot of tanks with 2h, were also wearing mostly defensive or a mix of defensive and offensive armor sets, which only meant they sacrificed WB utility and a solid chunk of survivability for a much more active and imo fun playstyle.
Last edited by OldSparky on Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CeeJay89
Posts: 250

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#58 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:27 am

Reesh wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:17 am
Spoiler:
CeeJay89 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:08 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:20 am
It really isn't too hard to see why: though time to kill is pretty fast if a team is outmatched, it can be pretty slow if teams are equally matched - even with 2h tanks. 2h tank bringing a bad version of Guard will mean people are less inclined to bring them (a 25% guard will simply not cut it versus high DPS groups), resulting in boring double SNB specs, which result in less damage overall = longer, drawn-out fights.

A good offensive tank could literally be the difference between winning and stalemating. SNB is no longer viable for offensive play - bar SM (semi-viable, at best) - which means that offensive tanks in 6v6 are a thing of the past.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not a fallacy?

Let me try to explain my position. You're saying that because 2H tanks only bring a 25% guard, it won't cut it versus a DPS group. However, doesn't a DPS group require...well, 2H tanks? That means that in order for them to DPS down the newly nerfed guard, they themselves have to make due with the newly nerfed guard. That means that kill time is actually quicker.

Now if we change it up, and instead bring shielded tanks into it, you're saying it will take longer. But if you're running your same DPS group, how is it any different from it is now? You're still going to hit that DPS/healer target for the same damage you did before. And if you say "Well, then the 2H tank groups won't survive because of the nerfed guard against SnB teams"...but because the other group is running a SnB tank to utilize the full effect of Guard, they're doing LESS damage (and I would argue considerably less)...meaning your survivability is almost identical.

I fail to see how this in any way affects 6v6 in the way you describe. To me, if comps stay the same as they were, kill times are actually quicker. And if one group opts for shield tanks, then they kill slower, making it nearly identical to what it is now. The only situation that it should increase time to kill, is if both groups decide to run shielded tanks.

As far as I can tell, the 6v6 scene is the group LEAST affected by these changes. The players who get hurt are solo puggers such as Volgograd who fight in 1vX situations, or those who fight against warbands in ORvR situations (since the incoming damage from 24vX is tremendously higher than 6v6).

I don't know how I feel exactly about the nerf to guard yet, but honestly...I was quite sick of seeing 2H tanks everywhere shitting on pug groups. I get that from an organized group's viewpoint, it really sucks to have to change it up and I sympathize with that, but the vast majority of players don't have organized groups. If you only cater to the elite, the game really isn't going to be any better off in my opinion.

I vote to play it out and see how it goes before jumping to any conclusions. I'm going to agree with some other players who voiced their opinion and say that shaking up the meta is probably for the better. That's just my 2c, take it or leave it.
Wrong, wrong wrong. It's not all about dps of a 2h that provides, even though it is significant, it is about utility in min/max setting. No access to superpunt on 10cd timer on kotbs/chosen, no access to only wounds debuff (outside of dogshit 2h slayer tree) that order has. List goes on.

At the same time, you won't be able to save anyone with 25% damage reduction, that's not possible.

That leaves only one way to go for tanks, SnB. Isn't that **** boring? So that 2h weapon models have go to waste, just "because reasons"? 2h was already a niche and small scale thing anyway.

Tanks are in a group for 3 things: full value guard, cc, challenge. The first one is the most important. Tank that doesn't provide it won't have a spot in a group, ever.
I'm not disagreeing that they won't be as good of tanks as SnB (which they shouldn't be anyways). I'm addressing Peter's remarks about 6v6.

I guess I'm inclined to disagree. I don't believe 2H tanks will be unviable. Just maybe not as optimal as they were before in roaming/6v6 situations.

We'll see how it plays out, I suppose.

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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#59 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:40 am

Reesh wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:00 am Those that know this game in and out already knows what new meta will be, Peter already said it. Its really not a rocket science, and those who doesn't know it already don't know the game well enough.
No it's not rocket science. But I dont think it's that cut and dry. Like I said earlier if teams default to 2 S/B tanks it make it even more boring than it already is. To me that seems like the most competitive alternative. But it's not unthinkable that people find something else that works. Especially if that comp proves unable to get kills against a good group.

In all honesty a competitive 6v6 can be kind of boring anyway. Which is why there are all those scoring rules instead of wins and losses. I think this will make that worse, but maybe I dont know the game well enough.

I always though 12 v 12 would be a better model. It would be less competitive for sure, but more dynamic and fun. I wish they would bring a scenario that you could queue for with 2 premade groups. I am probably alone in that boat though.

I am not trying to poo poo on anyone's parade. Its understandable that this niche community is upset. They are the most adversely effected by this errant change, when these are probably the people that put the most into the game. I hope everything works out. Either they revert the change or it doesnt turn out as bad as it seems.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: -Cancelled!!- 3rd 6v6 tournament! Saturday 30th! -cancelled!!-

Post#60 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:29 am

adamthelc wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:40 am
Reesh wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:00 am Those that know this game in and out already knows what new meta will be, Peter already said it. Its really not a rocket science, and those who doesn't know it already don't know the game well enough.
No it's not rocket science. But I dont think it's that cut and dry. Like I said earlier if teams default to 2 S/B tanks it make it even more boring than it already is. To me that seems like the most competitive alternative. But it's not unthinkable that people find something else that works. Especially if that comp proves unable to get kills against a good group.

In all honesty a competitive 6v6 can be kind of boring anyway. Which is why there are all those scoring rules instead of wins and losses. I think this will make that worse, but maybe I dont know the game well enough.

I always though 12 v 12 would be a better model. It would be less competitive for sure, but more dynamic and fun. I wish they would bring a scenario that you could queue for with 2 premade groups. I am probably alone in that boat though.

I am not trying to poo poo on anyone's parade. Its understandable that this niche community is upset. They are the most adversely effected by this errant change, when these are probably the people that put the most into the game. I hope everything works out. Either they revert the change or it doesnt turn out as bad as it seems.
No its not anything of this and this comment show a lack of understanding on how guard work you dont need to be def to mitigate guard you just have to stack parry and or block.

Aka there is no differece between a tank with 2h off tank and off s+b in mitigating guard dmg

S/b wont be boring as ppl will just spec offensive with high avlidance while still retain shield which mean also hold the line ...which also mean the only weakness of a melee train vs rdps has been dissolved .....(buff to melee train)....

Thia will became from a guard nerf to a tank dmg nerf due loosing 2h.

All the problems of the prevalence of 2h in small scale was due BAD tanks balance on masterys that killed any binded to s+b support for tank or make it numerically so low that 2h builds retain in common tools between both (not talking core stuff like challenge but mastery spec-able stuff viable for both set up) plus 2h bind stuff...

Ib/bg/ch/bo mid masterys are not good for anything exept pve, we are talking of 4/6 s+b dedicated mastery with no purpose...for any type of pvp.

Especily sc chosen right now with this last change...if it wasnt for MP increasing skills values you could just play it unspecced with no mastery assigned thus is getting ridiculus the more time it pass. It feel like these type of changes got made more like to punish someone or a class rather than make the game balance. Thats why i do not make anything organised anymore ....
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