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[Choppa] Why hasn't Wot Rules been made viable yet ?.

Black Orc, Squig Herder, Choppa, Shaman
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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [Choppa] Why hasn't Wot Rules been made viable yet ?.

Post#21 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:25 pm

wachlarz wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:05 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:26 pm
Diggot wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:32 pm

The backlash damage can easily be made up for with a single HoT, i've played Sorcs and a single HoT kept me up
while i was spamming spells - tried and tested.

Also.. with the amount of physical mitigation from armor / armorpots, the damagebonus from berserk is
a joke compared to the loss of defense.. you lose not only 50% armor, but resists.. 1 BW fireballcrit and you're dead.

Also add to the fact that BW's and Sorcs gets insane +crit% while backlash, and they got tons of debuffers for their spells.
Meles have the pressure and the CCs:
* Even with the debuff you are still speaking of medium armor versus robe, so except for the resists, BW/Sorc plays as a constantly debuffed Chop/Slay.
* The insane crit means also that they have been dropping at least 4-5 skills on a target, and I bet you that they can't survive 4-5 GCDs versus any mele of the game. Without the lack of hard CCs, and the knockdown in the part of the meles, if you are approached, 9 out 10 times you are knocked down and dead before it ends.
* You are still minimizing the Chop/Slay strengths to make them look like fail classes, and, hell no! They aren't.
* The base damage of BW/Sorc is very low, and only works out due to the crit mechanic. The same cannot be said about Chop/Slay, which base damage is more than ok and just scales to very generous with rage.
* Also you aren't taking into consideration that you have to cast things, and be set back while mele trained.

Honestly, I still think that you have no freaking idea of the classes that you speak of, or that you are deliberately trying to lie in your own favour. If such a failure of a class is, why so many people play it? Cause it's not. It's actually very strong and incredibly powerful, and can completely utter destroy any BW. BWs work to time stamp, but it requires no less than 5 seconds to do so, and I can definitely tell you that, even guarded and healed, if the opposite Choppa has the same, you are not going to outlast him in any way and you are going to die first thanks to the fact that your armor count is robe like. Armor potions making BWs unkillable by Choppas? Are you freaking joking or lieing?
4-5 gcd from mele as Bw pff. Try survive any mele class 1 full rotation from good Bw like Drukar, Simtex.
If your gear and preparation levels are abysmal, like running into an Invader ultra-potted min-maxed character with your unpotted annihilator-geared without talis fresh 40, expect to die fast and ingloriously. There are a lot if levels of engagement in between, ofc.

4 GCDs are more than enough time to kill any BW of your gear level unless that you have made the mistake of going full deftard in a DPS. As DPS your best defense tends to be to reduce your time-to-kill.
Spoiler:

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phononHYPE
Posts: 569

Re: [Choppa] Why hasn't Wot Rules been made viable yet ?.

Post#22 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:36 pm

I feel 2H choppa is in with a few other classes that are tactic starved. The point (to me) of 2H is to hit those big finishers, which of course drops rage. So we can either use Wot Rules or Pent Up Rage. Assuming Brute Force and Don't Wanna Live Forever, choose one of the above and we have really one tactic to choose. If we want to hit big, that choice is then either Flanking or Stab You Gooder. What this all means is that we have effectively no defenses. Armor and resists are cut in half, no I'm Da Biggest buffer, no utility other than to hit things. But we have to get close. We have to commit. 2H has to do all this because we don't have other options. Drop any one of these tactics and our dps is gimped hard enough that we become a group liability, where it takes more resources to keep us up than is worth it.

Compared to 2H tanks we have chosen with their spirit damage and passive auras, they can focus on dps; 2H BG have great group support with wound debuff and crit chance for others + super punt, 2H BO ... I hear bring a lot but I honestly don't know much about them - stat steal? All with good wound pools and armor. Compare to other melee dps, MSQ has great survival (pounce, KD, armor, taste like stunties, maybe share damage with pet) and lets not talk about how they are a ranged class too!; mara has to stance dance a bit but doesn't have nearly the penalties choppa has, good threat up front instead of waiting 3-7 seconds to improve (and lose it all when using Finisher). They can pull as a class core ability as well.; WE can choose battles, stun+jump away a good distance, usually have anti-magic for 7 seconds with Elixir of the Cauldron. They only seem limited in how often they can ignore armor from any position with Feinted Positions, and they have a 1-hit toughness debuff (mara also has this, choppa has to stack ours x3); who's next, healers gone dps? They ignore armor (use magic), if they debuff toughness (shaman, dok) they again do it in one use of an ability, but we'll keep them separate for now because they use magic.

I get how each class has its own thing, and choppas is more_damge=less_defense. But for 2H choppa especially, we are too limited. Wot Rules or Pent Up Rage try to give some options but we become too pigeon-holed to do that. From my first statement about tactics, perhaps this will change with further and better gear sets, so that we can drop perhaps Brute Force or DWLF and get another option. But for now, and for the near foreseeable future, 2H is not a viable option. This saddens me because I love it so.

What arguments are there against this? Get a group, get better gear or rank, learn your class and how it interacts with other (order) classes? This hold true in solo roaming. DW has Charge! and increased speed+pull from GTDC, all choppa get KD but exhausts rage. Using Wot Rules or Pent Up Rage to bypass this just cements us in the glass-cannon role. 3 or 6man groups? Sure, here we could expect a dedicated tank and healer, but consider the worst killer, KD when full red. What other class has this added penalty? Say Sorcerer with backlash, well that doesn't effect them when they're KDd, just their HP pool and paper-thin armor. That applies to WE, and all casters. We only have a wound pool, which we can't build up with I'm Da Biggest so we would have to mix some armor sets for 3pc Wound bonus or slot Wound talis, which just takes from our purpose as a dps. How about in a full warband? We should expect a guard and heals, but now we must assume that the tank will follow us+challenge and the heal can get to us fast enough. With a good guard and heals, sure we can do well but that is every class. So we hope we don't get focused because even with Guard our defenses are halved and then we become a resource drain as it takes 3+ heals focus healing to keep us up and we can't rage-dump.

And all this is before we start talking about 2H finishers, or finishers in general. They are suppose to be some good ... well finisher. Perhaps big damage or some added effect, but as is are some minor extra thing we may fit in a rotation to dump rage as a survival mechanism, not to actually put pressure and finish them off. What are the options, Wild Choppin is the best by far. AOE with good variable damage range, but most importantly, no target needed. We can use it as a rage dump, as a defense mechanism instead of an ability they may be worried about. The only other option is Weaklin' Killa. Nice, be up close and do some damage like choppa suppose to do. 40 AP and only slightly more damage the the positional Go Fer Da Soft Spot (30 AP). We could consider Reckless Blow, but that definitely needs Wot Rules.

On finishers from Path of Da Hitta, Tired Already? isn't going to swing any fight with its low damage and long CD. My favorite, No More Helpin' is good damage wise, but really, when will you ever use it on a healer? You will never, ever, even with a great tank and 3+ healers, push to the back line where the heals are. If you would use it on a healer then you have definitely already broken their WB and they are in flight mode. Oh, perhaps you can use it on a slayer, melee WP, or regen knight before they self-heal. yeah, that's a great use of the bonus heal-debuff. As a side note, No More Helpin' needs something, anything, to help it. I think an interrupt would be a solid start, but that's moving off topic.

So there, my very long and hopefully not too wall-of-texty look at how to use Wot Rules (or even Pent Up Rage) and how they are not really usable.
Chasing the golden carrot that is my alts.

my 2h choppa ideas
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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: [Choppa] Why hasn't Wot Rules been made viable yet ?.

Post#23 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:25 pm
wachlarz wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:05 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:26 pm

Meles have the pressure and the CCs:
* Even with the debuff you are still speaking of medium armor versus robe, so except for the resists, BW/Sorc plays as a constantly debuffed Chop/Slay.
* The insane crit means also that they have been dropping at least 4-5 skills on a target, and I bet you that they can't survive 4-5 GCDs versus any mele of the game. Without the lack of hard CCs, and the knockdown in the part of the meles, if you are approached, 9 out 10 times you are knocked down and dead before it ends.
* You are still minimizing the Chop/Slay strengths to make them look like fail classes, and, hell no! They aren't.
* The base damage of BW/Sorc is very low, and only works out due to the crit mechanic. The same cannot be said about Chop/Slay, which base damage is more than ok and just scales to very generous with rage.
* Also you aren't taking into consideration that you have to cast things, and be set back while mele trained.

Honestly, I still think that you have no freaking idea of the classes that you speak of, or that you are deliberately trying to lie in your own favour. If such a failure of a class is, why so many people play it? Cause it's not. It's actually very strong and incredibly powerful, and can completely utter destroy any BW. BWs work to time stamp, but it requires no less than 5 seconds to do so, and I can definitely tell you that, even guarded and healed, if the opposite Choppa has the same, you are not going to outlast him in any way and you are going to die first thanks to the fact that your armor count is robe like. Armor potions making BWs unkillable by Choppas? Are you freaking joking or lieing?
4-5 gcd from mele as Bw pff. Try survive any mele class 1 full rotation from good Bw like Drukar, Simtex.
If your gear and preparation levels are abysmal, like running into an Invader ultra-potted min-maxed character with your unpotted annihilator-geared without talis fresh 40, expect to die fast and ingloriously. There are a lot if levels of engagement in between, ofc.

4 GCDs are more than enough time to kill any BW of your gear level unless that you have made the mistake of going full deftard in a DPS. As DPS your best defense tends to be to reduce your time-to-kill.
Why U tell me some **** about low lvl chars ? TRY SURVIVE ANY MELE CLASS ONE FULL ROTATION OF GOOD BW/Sorc. BW/Sorc have stupid Op Crit chance ignoring all items U have, Rly Anihilator is bad but Invader is good? For BW/Sorc U can be naked or have Invader. Only resistance cout. Shamy buff or chosen buff make U caped on resistance. U have 0% to be crit ? Np Bw/Sorc can have +how many 60% to crit ? I have Sorc 900 int only Conq items and if i have good healer on sc dmg is ridiculous Op. Try heal some1 fokused by 2 Good Bw or Sorc.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: [Choppa] Why hasn't Wot Rules been made viable yet ?.

Post#24 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:24 pm

wachlarz wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:34 pm
Why U tell me some **** about low lvl chars ? TRY SURVIVE ANY MELE CLASS ONE FULL ROTATION OF GOOD BW/Sorc. BW/Sorc have stupid Op Crit chance ignoring all items U have, Rly Anihilator is bad but Invader is good? For BW/Sorc U can be naked or have Invader. Only resistance cout. Shamy buff or chosen buff make U caped on resistance. U have 0% to be crit ? Np Bw/Sorc can have +how many 60% to crit ? I have Sorc 900 int only Conq items and if i have good healer on sc dmg is ridiculous Op. Try heal some1 fokused by 2 Good Bw or Sorc.
How this matters? MeleeDD get guard before going all in. RangeDD detaunt the sorc/bw, while getting heals.
Dying is no option.

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