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Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

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herooftime
Posts: 27

Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#1 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:32 am

Hello fellow Chosen, its me Hero and I was hopping I could bring to your attention this post that was over looked 4 days ago by Lime. I've noticed the under performance of this class and looking at the Knight mastery tree, I really think the guy was on to something.

Subject: Chosen underperforming vs Kotbs in group play
Lime wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:22 am Having played both an 80 knight and 66 Chosen I will say the knight is overperforming in group play compared to the Chosen by a large margin.

For 6 man and scenario play: 2h Chosen vs 2h Knight comparison.

Knight has 2 tactics available from tree that basically act as an offensive and defensive tactic for the entire group. Chosen does not get anywhere near that kind of group utility power, nor does it really make up the utility by doing much more damage or offering anything more than the knight. It simply misses out on 2 extra group utilities.

1. Arcing Swings: 10% crit expose for anyone attacking your target. Gives everyone attacking your target +10% crit, including the knight, Chosen mirror is laughably worse as the chosen gets 15% self crit from the mirror tactic. So 5% self crit vs 10% crit for your group/warband. Giving classes with crit damage bonuses like WH/WL/ASW/BW 10% crit is way stronger than giving a low dps tank class 5% critical strike it's not even a comparison.

2. Focused mending: +15% healing for your entire group with stay focused aura active: A defensive tactic for your entire group while the chosen mirror is way higher in the same tree and only effects the chosen.

3. Vigilance vs Oppression: 50% damage reduction with 25% dmg penalty vs 15% damage reduction and no penalty. Knight defensive tree cooldown is so much stronger.

4. Solar Flare: Needs to be mirror'd to Chosen for fort play.

Reccomendation/Solution: I don't think nerfing the utility knight is the way but rather, give the chosen some group utility of his own to balance.

Chosen needs some group utility on par with his mirror. Some ideas are.

Rending Blade now causes your target to be less likely to defend an attack or causes some utility.
Daemonclaw now effects your group.
Embrace the winds changed to 15% heal bonus for group on resist aura. Swapped with siphoned energy tactic in right tree.
Tainted Wound tactic changed to reduce critical strike chance or buffed somehow.
Suppression and Oppression made undefendable.
Oppression: Buff the damage reduction to 25-35% from 15% and add a damage buff of 25-35%.
Tzeech's Reflection: (Right tree final skill) Now also effects your group/guard target or made somehow less underwhelming.
Solar Flare: Given to chosen for fort balance.

Some matching group utility would go along way to making Chosen not feel weak in comparison to the Kotbs.



3 minutes after the post a balance mod swiftly posted and locked the forum post.


DanielWinner wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:25 am Hello, Lime

We post all the balance suggestions on Balance Forums so you are welcome to make a thread there in Proposals section. But be careful if you post too many ideas at once, there is a chance that it won't be possible to discuss them. So you may start with the basic ones.

Good luck.


We can solve the issue of Chosen under performing if we can put together a fair balance proposal. Personally I am not in favor of mirroring the classes, but I do think that Embrace the Winds and Oppressing Blows should be more in line with the Knight's ability equivalents. Rending Blade is also a crazy expensive mastery investment for a basic AoE ability, I think if the ability was given an extra effect that helped group utility, such as an armor or damage debuff on targets it hits, it would help balance the class. But, what do you guys think? How should we make this appeal?
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DokB
Posts: 538

Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#2 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:18 am

Just make the same balance proposals with only 1 or 2 ideas at a time. There was honestly way too many changes within one proposal and it’s much easier to manage for everyone involved if they are split up separately.

That being said, who knows when any balance proposal will get shifted to the community discussion phase. Currently it comes down to the whim of the dev team (since we no longer have a balance mod) for what gets highlighted for discussion. And even then, if we were to get a balance proposal through with something like 99+% agreement from the community, it is still down to the 1 or 2 people at the top to decide whether they care/support the change enough to actually implement it.
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Wdova
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Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#3 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am

There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

I would make following changes to Chosen.

A) Opression does not require block or parry and does not require target. Its self buff which gives 25% dmg reduction with armor buff with 30s CD(No outgoing dmg debuff)!

B)Change Chosens tactic Embrace the Winds to Focused Mending counterpart(15% more heals for group)

C)Modify Chosens "Shatter Faith"morale 4 from Path of Discord to deal dmg and remove not 1 blessing, but ALL blessings and enchantments.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#4 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:37 am

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

I would make following changes to Chosen.

A) Opression does not require block or parry and does not require target. Its self buff which gives 25% dmg reduction with armor buff with 30s CD(No outgoing dmg debuff)!

B)Change Chosens tactic Embrace the Winds to Focused Mending counterpart(15% more heals for group)

C)Modify Chosens "Shatter Faith"morale 4 from Path of Discord to deal dmg and remove not 1 blessing, but ALL blessings and enchantments.
Chosen oppression problem is reductiom component not lasting 20 sec and be shatterable not requiring to hit.

//////////////////////

There are alredy chosen proposal on balance section but none has been gave attention.

Anyway vigilance dmg malus is a joke and vigilance dmg reduction should be 45% and not 50%..

Anyway chosen have a better substain its prob the one with the best substain tank in game on st, even when spec def.

For rvr chosen have aoe inc heal debuff, kobs dont....its outgoing.
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Wdova
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Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#5 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:00 am

Tesq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:37 am
Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

I would make following changes to Chosen.

A) Opression does not require block or parry and does not require target. Its self buff which gives 25% dmg reduction with armor buff with 30s CD(No outgoing dmg debuff)!

B)Change Chosens tactic Embrace the Winds to Focused Mending counterpart(15% more heals for group)

C)Modify Chosens "Shatter Faith"morale 4 from Path of Discord to deal dmg and remove not 1 blessing, but ALL blessings and enchantments.
Chosen oppression problem is reductiom component not lasting 20 sec and be shatterable not requiring to hit.

//////////////////////

There are alredy chosen proposal on balance section but none has been gave attention.

Anyway vigilance dmg malus is a joke and vigilance dmg reduction should be 45% and not 50%..

Anyway chosen have a better substain its prob the one with the best substain tank in game on st, even when spec def.

For rvr chosen have aoe inc heal debuff, kobs dont....its outgoing.
I understand that, but Opression requiring block or parry AND target to hit means chosen has no "O ****" panick button when backing up or pushing.

If 25% outgoing DR bother destro so much, I would give it 50%. To be honest Kobses specing for middle tree up to vigiliance doesnt care much about dealing dmg at all.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#6 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:14 am

Exatly because it do no dmg at all it could be 0% fact and slight op is that 50% is not in line with ib and chosen avarage values every 10 sec.

Ch 7.5
Ib 15
Kobs 16.6

The correct value is 15% average per 1 sec or every 10 sec as ib.

Bloc parry is no prob you need panic button if you take dmg from.direct attacks (not work with guard). And guard trigger oppression.

As per my proposal in balance section (pending review taking dust forever) for more balanced panic button on tanks.

You either have it high as kobs self buff buffbut shatterable or if require to hit then it must be NOT shatterable.

The duration adjustement is just to bring it in line due values above.

And before anyone came lock this bragging about balance forum at least here we can discuss stuff instead let it die in balance section.

Anyway tzeench reflection is not a panic button, its a CC, willpower buff vs ppl with 1050 int serve no purpose and rest is too short to make use since silenced ppl do not attack you....aka if its a heavy bw meta its usefull probably more than oppression exept that it's mostly hard when game is moral bomb and you are not for rest a block based tank....

We need oppression to be in line....
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Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#7 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:26 am

daemonclaw dps2h tactic
rending blade i seen video where its crit 1k
oppresing blows +15crit
mixed defenses
flawless armor
tceench reflection
oppresion similar to sm crushing advance
destined for victory
in my eyes chosen has very good choices also played chosen to 55rr and get bored its too ease mode.
replacing mixed defenses to +5 crit tactic ( not worse it)
tzeens reflection very good to counter bw maby also am
offc vigilance is what kobs have better than chosen
kobs running +15 heal + 5 crit lose ather good tactics ( or maby its standart kobs build vs chosen who can choose.) as i remember there should be changes for both clases year ago, byt it was on papper and not realesed on live.
chosen is very selfish tank vs kobs grp friendly.
i suggest remove dirty tricks from game and replace it with mixed defenses and make +15 heal only self. also chosen and kobs have same heal debuff. vigilance should be similar to black orc abilitie big brawl . maby there is smarter ppl than me and will point out where i inccorect info. byt what i seen chosen dps 2h is good. ( maby some whant even more buff 2h byt not me)
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bctakhy
Posts: 110

Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#8 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 am

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

No. SH pounce is mirroed with SW teleport. WL pounce or SM jump have no mirror on destro. If u count is 3 jump vs 1.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kobs "Arcing swing" is CORE 120 wounds debuff to all who hit. If u spend 8 skill points u get tactic for make targets 10% more chnce get crited.

BG needs 14 skill points spend and use 30 hate for the chance be crited. For the wounds debuff u need spend 12 points for the tactic and make a crit. Dunno where u see a mirror here. Kobs 8 skill points needed. BG 15 points.
U need other 30 hate for Furious Howl...

Chosen wounds debuff is 75 value and need a Discordant aura on.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Not even close to a mirror. Make chosen get 15% more heals (for 12 skill points used) is nice for PvE, since chosen is hited by mobs. In rvr who hit a tank? Make all team get 10% more heals for 8 skill points used is just lol. Remember only order gets wounds buff... (that also sux big time, since "DoK only toy" where group cleanse and it where given free to order after lot of forum crys with no wounds buff from "WP only toy" to destro)

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

a) Very usefull WP buff on chosen for 14 skill points...
b) 50 dmg reduction vs 15% dmg reduction...
c) since armour buff dont stack with pot make it very poor buff

Kobs also gets AE snare for 4 skill points, where chosen get 40 AP drain... Again BG needs 10 skill points for that, with 20 sec CD vs 5 sec CD

Kobs gets No Scape, that is not olny a unbreakable AE root, is one more moral 1200 dmg to bomb, where chosen dont get anything like that (or any other destro class, while WL also gets a unbreakable root for 10 sec vs mara version of 5 sec)

Following this, kobs is better version of 2 destro tanks... That also can drain all moral from enemies in fortess push.

Im not big fan of full mirror classes, but give all easymode toys to 1 side (not only to kobs) kinda sux. I come from DAOC, my think is skills mush be > class buffs to win and ofc battles mush be in game, not in forums.

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Tesq
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Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#9 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:13 am

Spoiler:
bctakhy wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 am
Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

No. SH pounce is mirroed with SW teleport. WL pounce or SM jump have no mirror on destro. If u count is 3 jump vs 1.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kobs "Arcing swing" is CORE 120 wounds debuff to all who hit. If u spend 8 skill points u get tactic for make targets 10% more chnce get crited.

BG needs 14 skill points spend and use 30 hate for the chance be crited. For the wounds debuff u need spend 12 points for the tactic and make a crit. Dunno where u see a mirror here. Kobs 8 skill points needed. BG 15 points.
U need other 30 hate for Furious Howl...

Chosen wounds debuff is 75 value and need a Discordant aura on.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Not even close to a mirror. Make chosen get 15% more heals (for 12 skill points used) is nice for PvE, since chosen is hited by mobs. In rvr who hit a tank? Make all team get 10% more heals for 8 skill points used is just lol. Remember only order gets wounds buff... (that also sux big time, since "DoK only toy" where group cleanse and it where given free to order after lot of forum crys with no wounds buff from "WP only toy" to destro)

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

a) Very usefull WP buff on chosen for 14 skill points...
b) 50 dmg reduction vs 15% dmg reduction...
c) since armour buff dont stack with pot make it very poor buff

Kobs also gets AE snare for 4 skill points, where chosen get 40 AP drain... Again BG needs 10 skill points for that, with 20 sec CD vs 5 sec CD

Kobs gets No Scape, that is not olny a unbreakable AE root, is one more moral 1200 dmg to bomb, where chosen dont get anything like that (or any other destro class, while WL also gets a unbreakable root for 10 sec vs mara version of 5 sec)

Following this, kobs is better version of 2 destro tanks... That also can drain all moral from enemies in fortess push.

Im not big fan of full mirror classes, but give all easymode toys to 1 side (not only to kobs) kinda sux. I come from DAOC, my think is skills mush be > class buffs to win and ofc battles mush be in game, not in forums.
this is half wrong basically
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bctakhy
Posts: 110

Re: Chosen are underperforming vs Kotbs in group play

Post#10 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:12 pm

Tesq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:13 am
Spoiler:
bctakhy wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 am
Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am There are no direct mirror between classes. For example order melee dps White lion have pounce which is mirrored to destro hybrid dps Squig herder in to his melee tree.

No. SH pounce is mirroed with SW teleport. WL pounce or SM jump have no mirror on destro. If u count is 3 jump vs 1.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs "Arcing swing" is mirrored to Blackguards "Crimson Death" same as Staggering impact(10% AOE defence debuff) is also mirrored to Blackguards "Furious Howl".

Kobs "Arcing swing" is CORE 120 wounds debuff to all who hit. If u spend 8 skill points u get tactic for make targets 10% more chnce get crited.

BG needs 14 skill points spend and use 30 hate for the chance be crited. For the wounds debuff u need spend 12 points for the tactic and make a crit. Dunno where u see a mirror here. Kobs 8 skill points needed. BG 15 points.
U need other 30 hate for Furious Howl...

Chosen wounds debuff is 75 value and need a Discordant aura on.

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kotbs tactic "Focused mending" is mirrored to chosen by crap version which works against Chosen him self. I would change that to Kobs version.

Not even close to a mirror. Make chosen get 15% more heals (for 12 skill points used) is nice for PvE, since chosen is hited by mobs. In rvr who hit a tank? Make all team get 10% more heals for 8 skill points used is just lol. Remember only order gets wounds buff... (that also sux big time, since "DoK only toy" where group cleanse and it where given free to order after lot of forum crys with no wounds buff from "WP only toy" to destro)

Wdova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:33 am Kobs Vigiliance is 50% damage reduction with 25% outgoing dmg reduction with 30s CD.
Chosen Opression is 15% dmg reduction + armor buff with no outgoing dmg reduction with 20s CD ,but chosen has also Tzentch Reflection which A) increase willpower B) add 25% disrubt C)silence attacker for 3s with 30s CD

a) Very usefull WP buff on chosen for 14 skill points...
b) 50 dmg reduction vs 15% dmg reduction...
c) since armour buff dont stack with pot make it very poor buff

Kobs also gets AE snare for 4 skill points, where chosen get 40 AP drain... Again BG needs 10 skill points for that, with 20 sec CD vs 5 sec CD

Kobs gets No Scape, that is not olny a unbreakable AE root, is one more moral 1200 dmg to bomb, where chosen dont get anything like that (or any other destro class, while WL also gets a unbreakable root for 10 sec vs mara version of 5 sec)

Following this, kobs is better version of 2 destro tanks... That also can drain all moral from enemies in fortess push.

Im not big fan of full mirror classes, but give all easymode toys to 1 side (not only to kobs) kinda sux. I come from DAOC, my think is skills mush be > class buffs to win and ofc battles mush be in game, not in forums.
this is half wrong basically

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