New WE player - can't kill healers?

[imperialdeadite]

I have been playing a WE and have hit rank 14. There are a lot of time that I am able to get the healer down to under 20% health and then watch their self heal pop them back up to 60%.
But there are many times that I am able to kill the healer off. I am certain that it comes down to some luck with getting crits and proc'ing the Kiss to debuff their healing by 50%.

Sometimes it is harder to kill the healer than other times.

[jokerspsycho]

So, in your opinion, the reason We/Wh have less baseline utility than other Mdps is because of stealth? Which I wish was like 30s dura 15s cd but that's another bag of worms I REALLY dont want to get into atm.

Can you answer the last 2 questions?

-Would it make them THAT oppressive?

-Is the class that good that a 50% uptime positional snare would break the class into the territory of OP?

They have less utility you say, let's look.
They have the choice of 2 knockdowns, one even on 30ft and...
3sec Silence and 4sec disarm,
10sec Movement cc immunity,
Selfpunt to escape, to get closer to a target in team fights or to stagger a healer,
7sec 50% speedbuff,
7% disrupt, which prevents all caster cc too,
Parry/dodge m1

... and you have to use none of this to get even in melee range, because of stealth. It's at your disposal to counter enemy defensive measures.

In general I think you are not aware how this works here. You don't throw in a suggestion and ask whether something is op. You have to make a reasonable point why a class needs a buff in the first place. Not being able to handle a fight against rdps is no argument.

Iirc with cc immunity, kd, silence, disarm all count towards the same cc immunity correct? Meaning if I kd you, I cannot silence you afterwards or disarm you, yes?

Disclaimer: at work so cant look to in depth at other classes atm.

1- having the choice of 2kd is nice, slotting both is more niche I would feel like bc obv u cant chain them. Maybe if you had 2 targets and your being on more of an assist set up, cc main target, cc secondary target, could argue heart seeker for the damage itself bc its base damage is high and wanting the disrupt vs healing debuff and vanish (oyk) or obv only getting the 20s cd stun getting both vanish and disrupt with a Witches brew build
2-most (maybe all?) mdps and some (maybe all?) Rdps have a disarm but again cant stack ccs, think some also have silences
3- all of mdps have this
4- nice to run away for sure, doesnt help keeping up with any target (not just rdps) unless it's a WL and u can kick off the pet, I also do see the uses of it which can be strong when used well.
5-other classes have charge on 30s cd, could argue we are stealthed for 2s so that's why its 1m cd (this is hard for me to smile at bc I've played other games where vanish is actually a vanish, i do understand however it isnt in the scope of this game atm)
6- yes good skill as long as you skill it
7- all mdps

If you are speaking of just ganking overall, normally one would find a spot to wait a bit and jump someone, so one could save all their utility for combat as well, same as if a Rdps jumped a mdps it would suck bc they start out kiting you (for anyone that doesnt have a gap closer). Even we/wh has to do this to some extent bc of stealth duration n cd (which is fine).

I also said "baseline utility" bc I am lazy and doing a lot of digging on my phone can be a pita. But off the top of my head, aoe pull on choppa, aoe kd on mara, pounce on wl, slayer I'm not sure of. Think someone here has an aoe slow as well, 50% uptime?

I also asked if it would be oppressive which isn't the same thing as op. Tanks are very oppressive bc of their challenges, slows, punts, and kds. I'm asking if you think that a positional slow, 40% 5s dura 10s cd, would make the class to oppressive with it's current kit. Again it's not only to "beat rdps" as you say, it's to not get slowed and watch Joey walk away and have to blow a 2 1m cds (root immunity and vanish, maybe just root immunity if your fast, then get into rock paper scissors with guessing what they are gonna do and hopefully you picked the right skill to counter yadda yadda) just to catch him when any other class hits a 10s/5s cd and they are the same speed

[Starx]

So, in your opinion, the reason We/Wh have less baseline utility than other Mdps is because of stealth? Which I wish was like 30s dura 15s cd but that's another bag of worms I REALLY dont want to get into atm.

Can you answer the last 2 questions?

-Would it make them THAT oppressive?

-Is the class that good that a 50% uptime positional snare would break the class into the territory of OP?

They have less utility you say, let's look.
They have the choice of 2 knockdowns, one even on 30ft and...
3sec Silence and 4sec disarm,
10sec Movement cc immunity,
Selfpunt to escape, to get closer to a target in team fights or to stagger a healer,
7sec 50% speedbuff,
7% disrupt, which prevents all caster cc too,
Parry/dodge m1

... and you have to use none of this to get even in melee range, because of stealth. It's at your disposal to counter enemy defensive measures.

In general I think you are not aware how this works here. You don't throw in a suggestion and ask whether something is op. You have to make a reasonable point why a class needs a buff in the first place. Not being able to handle a fight against rdps is no argument.

You only have OYK in a warband spec
the silence and disarm are trashed pre CC nerf abilities, just use KD its on a 20 sec cd.
every mdps has this
Self punt is nice but its not a get out of jail free card
Elixirs all share the same CD they and yes shadows is what you want to use its amazing its a real get out of jail free card albeit on a 60 sec cd, while other mdps get the charge portion without stealth on half the CD and doesnt share cds with other abilities
see above
every mdps has this

WE/WH def needs some love but i feel like its a WL situation. Other games have this problem too im not sure what to call it. It's when a class or hero needs a buff to be competitive in an organized setting but all avenues to do so will lead to it becoming an absolute pub stomping monster (why i call it a WL situation). I dont think WL is OP, but I can see why pugs and casuals look at the class and see a monster. Same goes for melee squig honestly.

The class doesn't need anything crazy its not total garbage, you see people running WE in 6v6 etc... but we will see how the mara buffs shake things up. As for city its worse off, its not terrible and can put up good numbers but its just pushing 2 buttons and doing dmg/small morale pump.

[jokerspsycho]

Elixirs all share the same CD they and yes shadows is what you want to use its amazing its a real get out of jail free card albeit on a 60 sec cd, while other mdps get the charge portion without stealth on half the CD and doesnt share cds with other abilities

WE/WH def needs some love but i feel like its a WL situation. Other games have this problem too im not sure what to call it. It's when a class or hero needs a buff to be competitive in an organized setting but all avenues to do so will lead to it becoming an absolute pub stomping monster (why i call it a WL situation). I dont think WL is OP, but I can see why pugs and casuals look at the class and see a monster. Same goes for melee squig honestly.

I forgot that those 3 skills share a CD, RIP

Also I think it's the "new champion" complex. Take in LoL for example. They create classes and make changes to fit the current meta and more recent champions. The older champs arent as good normally until they get a bit of a rework to match the current meta.

So you have a game that has a base set of rules. They changed those rules, then classes that were hit hard by these changes didnt get anything in return. Afterwards new changes and designs were done with this new set of rules in mind creating one group of heros, champs, classes, etc. that seem like they have everything and another group which seem like they are lacking in a few areas, not a lot, but enough to be noticed. This is because they are still working AGAINST the new set of rules, with an old set of skills facing off against people working WITH the new set of rules.

I do think that both mSH and WL have a lot of utility for what they bring, both having perma slow and lots of mobility (territorial aggression with SH especially) but feel like it is increased by the game being not designed around things like 0cd leap/leaps and pulls on the same class. That being said, I do love my mSH xD

[heretus]

Question is - are WE reworked here to fulfill some new, secret role that I don't understand or is it normal that no matter what I do I cannot kill any healer in scenarios even in pure 1vs1 situations. I'm not talking only about those tanky Warpriests - I'm talking about all of the healer types.

I have been playing for a few days, prolly will not continue , this server seems to be plagued by exactly the very same issues that plagues the official.

Every single order class seems better than its destro equivelant.

almost all areas are controlled (for the most part) by order.

and the most important , despite the original warhammer premise ("if you like healing click away , go play another game" , etc promotional videos) healers are unkillable godlike tier way above the rest.

IMO : if a pure dps gets to pass the fornt lines and gets to be on the healer, the healer should die , plain and simple.

Currently healers work as tanks as they can be up to 4 vs 1 and still survive, healers ( healing everyone spamming without stop for some reason their AP seems to be endless) and of course as almost the sole reason you win or loose a scenario.

Keep this "healers should not die against 1 dps (something that to me always sounded stupid) keep them able to spam their arses off non stop while tanking 2-4 players EASILY , keep every single order better from just a little bit to a holy **** level and see how this ends up as well.

Having said all the above however : Kudos for bringing up this game and maintaining it , that takes major @@ , and deserves respect, however trying the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of madness, there is a reason why official died (many reasons actually) and they all seem present.

[mijal]

I also played a rr100 WE on live and have been back for about 3 weeks. I agree the class is either weaker now or other classes are stronger.

[Sulorie]

I have been playing for a few days, prolly will not continue , this server seems to be plagued by exactly the very same issues that plagues the official.

Every single order class seems better than its destro equivelant.

almost all areas are controlled (for the most part) by order.

and the most important , despite the original warhammer premise ("if you like healing click away , go play another game" , etc promotional videos) healers are unkillable godlike tier way above the rest.

IMO : if a pure dps gets to pass the fornt lines and gets to be on the healer, the healer should die , plain and simple.

Currently healers work as tanks as they can be up to 4 vs 1 and still survive, healers ( healing everyone spamming without stop for some reason their AP seems to be endless) and of course as almost the sole reason you win or loose a scenario.

Keep this "healers should not die against 1 dps (something that to me always sounded stupid) keep them able to spam their arses off non stop while tanking 2-4 players EASILY , keep every single order better from just a little bit to a holy **** level and see how this ends up as well.

Having said all the above however : Kudos for bringing up this game and maintaining it , that takes major @@ , and deserves respect, however trying the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of madness, there is a reason why official died (many reasons actually) and they all seem present.

Did you ever thought, for a split second, that you just lack the experience to be able to judge all this? That all this is your personal issue and not a general imbalance, because you only see a small picture due to your lack of game knowledge?
I guess no.

[sighy]

I also played a rr100 WE on live and have been back for about 3 weeks. I agree the class is either weaker now or other classes are stronger.

Both

[jokerspsycho]

I also played a rr100 WE on live and have been back for about 3 weeks. I agree the class is either weaker now or other classes are stronger.

From what I've read, yes and yes

Every single order class seems better than its destro equivelant.

almost all areas are controlled (for the most part) by order.

IMO : if a pure dps gets to pass the fornt lines and gets to be on the healer, the healer should die , plain and simple.

Currently healers work as tanks as they can be up to 4 vs 1 and still survive, healers ( healing everyone spamming without stop for some reason their AP seems to be endless) and of course as almost the sole reason you win or loose a scenario.
.

I hear it said order has more damage, desteo more utility. I dont know accurate this is tho.

It changes every few weeks to who is dominant, but needs to have some kinda zone lockout if u join a lake. Yestersay destro had a failed keep push, 100 players logged and in about 30m we had 60+% aao from there to city so if you joined a lake oRvR it should refresh your lockout time imo

I seems if a WL gets on a healer they die. People just dont think WE and WH should be able to do it the issue is most healers have an aoe 50% detaunt that has a 100% up time so that + guard they are taking 25% dmg. I've had success using disrupt elixir to ignore detaunt but a well geared healer is sometimes harder to kill than a tank it feels like.

Would be nice to hear from a dev if they are fine with the designs of WH and WE and dont plan on making any changes. Then at least I could move back to my MSH or try WL, play the really strong classes. Maybe a dok who knows.

[Sulorie]

the issue is most healers have an aoe 50% detaunt that has a 100% up time so that + guard they are taking 25% dmg. I've had success using disrupt elixir to ignore detaunt but a well geared healer is sometimes harder to kill than a tank it feels like.

Let's start to correct some statements, shall we?

Detaunt and guard don't stack.
Your disrupt buff makes you immune to caster CC but doesn't work against detaunt. You can always detaunt unless you are silenced/disarmed.