[White Lion] Pounce need a Cooldown

[Annaise16]

A good comparison is between Pounce and Run 'n Shoot on the Squig Herder. They are effectively both 65 ft range, spammable abilities. Pounce does about the same damage as Run 'n Shoot when both classes have the same damage bonus and when you take into account auto-attack and pet damage. Is this how things should be?

Would it hurt for Pounce to have a 2-3 second cd? This depends how close Pounce lands the WL to their target. If the WL lands close enough to the target that they can apply their snare, then Pounce has done its job and would not be hurt by a short cd. If the WL lands close enough to use Charge to close the gap in 1-2 seconds, then, once again, Pounce has probably done its job well enough and it could probably be given a short cd. If it lands the WL too far from the target for the WL to close the gap, then Pounce probably shouldn't have a cd. After all, it is meant to be a way for the WL to close the gap on a distant or fleeing target.

I predominantly play destro now and it is annoying to have WLs using Pounce to kill my toons in situations where, if I was playing Order, I could have probably made it to safety. But that is something I just have to be aware of and adapt to. In a 1v1 with a WL or in situations where I'm unlikely to receive help, it's either kill or be killed. There is no fleeing to safety.

For those who are complaining that WLs are using their Pounce defensively to escape damage, I would say that is why you have knockdowns, focus-fire, and rdps.

With regard to people complaining about the WL's burst damage, you have the choice to stack armour, learn to use your Detaunt more effectively, and spec for Futile Strikes. Futile Strikes will work well against all crit damage bonus classes at the low crit rates we currently have in game.

[Azarael]

A good comparison is between Pounce and Spiral-Fletched Arrow. They are effectively both 65 ft range, spammable abilities. Pounce does about 60 points less damage than SFA when both classes have the same damage bonus. However, when you include their respective auto-attack damages, and the pet's damage, the WL is probably doing as much damage while spamming Pounce as the SW is doing while spamming SFA. Is this how things should be?

You neglect to mention the following:

- Pounce usually drops the user out of attack range. That's why it's spammed. The melee damage is invoked from Pounce's delayed handlers when it is cast, not by proximity to the target. This means that the auto attack is not always relevant.
- The pet need not have reached the target, depending on how fast they're moving, and so its contribution is unreliable.
- Pounce is a body attack, and while it can be initiated from 65ft like S-FA, it will always finish with the WL within 5-15ft of the attacked target, exposing him more to the enemy than S-FA would.

Would it hurt for Pounce to have a 2-3 second cd? This depends how close Pounce lands the WL to their target. If the WL lands close enough to the target that they can apply their snare, then Pounce has done its job and would not be hurt by a short cd. If the WL lands close enough to use Charge to close the gap in 1-2 seconds, then, once again, Pounce has probably done its job well enough and it could probably be given a short cd. If it lands the WL too far from the target for the WL to close the gap, then Pounce probably shouldn't have a cd. After all, it is meant to be a way for the WL to close the gap on a distant or fleeing target.

This will be the point of contention. I have had a discussion with one of the team members regarding this, who expressed frustration about how WLs can spam Pounce in 1on1 to kill. Notwithstanding that we will not make balance adjustments based on 1on1 and we do not support it at all, the result of nerfing Pounce to prevent its spam for damage would result either in WLs resorting to the burst (if Pounce is reliable for attacking, and I don't consider being forced to blow Charge! reliable) or Pounce being able to root or snare the target to ensure that it is fit for purpose, in which case the players complaining about Spam Pounce To Kill are just going to be bursted down instead.

I predominantly play destro now and it is annoying to have WLs using Pounce to kill my toons in situations where, if I was playing Order, I could have probably made it to safety. But that is something I just have to be aware of and adapt to. In a 1v1 with a WL, it's either kill or be killed. There is no fleeing to safety.

In general, I feel a number of the complaints about Pounce come from the 1on1 perspective. All I can do is reiterate for everyone that the game wasn't balanced for 1on1, and as such, we will not even consider arguments based on 1on1 when it comes to making class changes.

[Tiir]

Looks like White lion is not competetiv without a no CD gap closer. So RoR is the first and maybe last Game with a gap closer on a melee DD without CD in the history of Game balancing.

Now is my chance, why complaning than u can join the fotm. Time to make a new Toon.

Over and out.

[sydd]

In general, I feel a number of the complaints about Pounce come from the 1on1 perspective.

I agree.

All I can do is reiterate for everyone that the game wasn't balanced for 1on1, and as such, we will not even consider arguments based on 1on1 when it comes to making class changes.

Just two question if you don't mind:

1) If you could create your brand new ideal pvp game, would you do the balancing 1-on-1 or not?

2) Why?

[Azarael]

Whether or not you balance around 1on1 depends entirely on the type of game. If you're talking about MMOs and other class-based games, you never balance around 1on1. Class-based games are designed for group play, and the dynamics of the game change between duelling, small scale, mid scale and large-scale games. MMOs are even worse, because minmaxing, introduction of new items etc. all severely impact upon balance and this fact is very poorly appreciated by most MMO players, who don't seem to understand the insane challenges posed in balancing a game which has such a massive number of variables and base game states. 1on1 in a class-based game is so much further away from the other modes that you cannot balance for it without either severely restricting the abilities you give to your classes or compromising on the balance in the most important areas of the game.

[Grobbok]

but all ppl see that is something wrong with WL and his pounce relative to old war
and it is not 1v1 matter, what was at Praag siege yesterday?, so many ppl saw what WL is doing by pounce spam

[Toldavf]

Well I have 3 observations of pounce from group play.

1. Playing melee its an annoying escape tool. I'll often ask for lions to be chch early for this reason or when on mara I will pop um with m1 and hope their break is off cd this will usually mitigate their movement.

2. On RDPS pounce reduces the amount of ground I can use. In a group on group setting the lion really reduces where I can stand and because of that at times some shorter range abilities wont be available to me.

3. As was mentioned ccing WL is a pain in the arse. If they want to be they can be pretty much relentless on a target getting them off somebody is impossible you can at most buy a little time with some cc. I wish punts would stick to them just a little bit so they at least have to worry about positioning instead of having a much easier time in regards to terrain.

[sydd]

Whether or not you balance around 1on1 depends entirely on the type of game. If you're talking about MMOs and other class-based games, you never balance around 1on1. Class-based games are designed for group play, and the dynamics of the game change between duelling, small scale, mid scale and large-scale games. MMOs are even worse, because minmaxing, introduction of new items etc. all severely impact upon balance and this fact is very poorly appreciated by most MMO players, who don't seem to understand the insane challenges posed in balancing a game which has such a massive number of variables and base game states. 1on1 in a class-based game is so much further away from the other modes that you cannot balance for it without either severely restricting the abilities you give to your classes or compromising on the balance in the most important areas of the game.

Ok, i understand what you mean and i agree. I would only add some considerations about what we mean as BALANCE in a pvp mmo: in my opinion is not about "x class = y class", it would not make any sense. Much better would be a balance around the archetypes, making their roles very well marked. In WAR a lot of classes have suffered huge changes from alpha/beta to release and this, in my opinion, has caused many balance issues.
To give just one example: books / chalices for WP and Doks.

What do you tihink about it?

[Bozzax]

- Pounce usually drops the user out of attack range.

Clothies casting heals or damage spells are toast though. Especially in a group setting where WH/SW buddy opens with a KD.

What makes pounce OP imo is this though

- Pounce usually drops the user out of attack range of the destruction melee train

This is exactly why we never target the WL unless the other mdps is dead. Only exception is when WL is morale rooted.

[Luicetarro]

Looks like White lion is not competetiv without a no CD gap closer. So RoR is the first and maybe last Game with a gap closer on a melee DD without CD in the history of Game balancing.

Now is my chance, why complaning than u can join the fotm. Time to make a new Toon.

Over and out.

Sadly, you're wrong.

I know at least two mmos, with no-cooldown gap closer.
And before you ask, they aren't popular, but still exist. So your argument is invalid.