Why archmages are so overpowered?

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Ugle
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#11 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:48 am
Post a sc scoreboard. Come with some data or nobody can help you.
:D
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peterthepan3
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:46 pm

If you're in a 6 and you lose to a 6 consisting of nothing but DPS AMs, then you simply got outplayed: as others have said, DPS AM starts off strong in the lower tiers (as do all of the DPS healers), but gets progressively less potent when cleanses/CC/gap closers come into the equation.

A DPS AM will thrive in unorganised environments, where he is able to multidot and go to town on targets, knowing that his dots will probably not even be cleansed, and he probably won't even be detaunted. I am assuming that this is the environment you are talking about? If so, this isn't indicative of the DPS AM being OP whatsoever; rather, it is simply telling us that you were coming up against DPS AM while having no cleanses, guards, heals, etc. - aka falling into prime-self-sufficient-class territory.

The moment you bring a competent DOK healer into the mix is when you effectively counter a great deal of the DPS AM's power. The DPS AM is a good addition to a group, but is by no means OP, and can be dealt with pretty easily when you have a Marauder/Melee SH/Ranged SH/Zealot for stagger/Magus/Sorc.

DPS AM damage has a bit of ramp-up time (which people tend to forget), so if you can cleanse them consistently, and put them on the backfoot, they will not be nearly as potent as they would be had you left them to their own devices (sorta like Magus/Engi in that regard).

Re WP: Grace was not 'nerfed' whatsoever, the specs were simply fleshed out into more 'purist' roles (as opposed to hybrids). Grace can 100% function as well as it did pre-shield - if not better - and Wrath puts out more damage than it used to, while not being as tanky or offering as good heals as it once did.
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michela89
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#13 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:57 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:38 pm
The same result would have happened with any other stack of dd classes and proper assist.

Still no point to discuss this any further, as OP didn't provide any data.

I didnt see 7 slayers in a single Scenario in Mid tier tho

any class can do veeeery well in lower tiers, especially if played well. It's just that in pug environment , which is basically what the scenarios in the levelling range are about, is quite cancerous.
Last edited by michela89 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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peterthepan3
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#14 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm

michela89 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:57 pm
Sulorie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:38 pm
The same result would have happened with any other stack of dd classes and proper assist.

Still no point to discuss this any further, as OP didn't provide any data.
I didnt see 7 slayers in a single Scenario in Mid tier tho
People are drawn towards self-sufficient classes, simple as. We are playing a game where, despite it being a group-based MMO, a lot of people are solocentric, and as such, it is natural for said people to lean towards classes that would facilitate to such a playstyle.

Still doesn't change the fact that a well-played Slayer will absolutely **** on a DPS AM in terms of effectiveness within a group or WB setting. Heck, even solo Slayer is very potent if you play well (or backpedal hard enough).
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BeautfulToad
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#15 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:16 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Re WP: Grace was not 'nerfed' whatsoever, the specs were simply fleshed out into more 'purist' roles (as opposed to hybrids). Grace can 100% function as well as it did pre-shield - if not better - and Wrath puts out more damage than it used to, while not being as tanky or offering as good heals as it once did.
Dont disagree with that, but the dps Shammie/AM are not similarly purist roles, and they have the added advantage of being ranged. This is in part to the fact that shammie/AM are meant to be hybrids but that feature is half-implemented. Really, shammie/AM should be forced into hybrid builds where a dps builds does slightly less damage than now but more healing (probably not viable), or purist where they basically cant heal if dps (goes against their entire meta).

Can't see how a slayer could ever solo a shammie. Choppa has pull, so could get lucky v AM.

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peterthepan3
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#16 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Hybrid play really does not work in a min-max PvP environment, though, and the closest it ever came to working was during the .ab ex lifetap AM/Shaman period, where it was overperforming in certain respects. Hybrids always tend to end up being either OTT, or underperforming.

DPS Shaman/AM are purist in the sense that you will take them into a group for their DPS; you will not take them into a group for their healing, as the heals a DPS Shaman/AM will put out will not keep your group afloat whatsoever (2 x -healing mandatory tactics). What I will concede is that certain abilities (such as res or cleanse) could perhaps be given longer CDs when in DPS mode, to prevent DPS healers from adding another rez into group fights, etc.
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Luuca
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#17 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:29 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:31 pm
Hybrid play really does not work in a min-max PvP environment, though, and the closest it ever came to working was during the .ab ex lifetap AM/Shaman period, where it was overperforming in certain respects. Hybrids always tend to end up being either OTT, or underperforming.

DPS Shaman/AM are purist in the sense that you will take them into a group for their DPS; you will not take them into a group for their healing, as the heals a DPS Shaman/AM will put out will not keep your group afloat whatsoever (2 x -healing mandatory tactics). What I will concede is that certain abilities (such as res or cleanse) could perhaps be given longer CDs when in DPS mode, to prevent DPS healers from adding another rez into group fights, etc.
Adding a longer CD on Cleansing Light or Gift of Life would necessitate either tuning up lifetap heals a little to compensate, and/or providing the AM with similar tools for kiting that the Shamans have (e.i. super speed on hit) as these two actions would remove a greater part of the utility of the class/spec in a group setting, further diminishing their inclusion into organized groups or warbands.

While I am of the opinion that the original 60 second cool down on the AM M1 Iasha's Ward was intended to act as the substitute for the Shaman Run Away tactic, it has since been reduced to a 30-second CD.

Tuning this spec on this class is going to be very difficult because when played well, they are extremely good at killing; however, when played "average" they are perhaps the least useful spec to have in-game.
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sioding
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#18 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:02 pm

I know exactly where this thread leads to... see you in two pages.
OCRANA ...deal with it!
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BeautfulToad
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#19 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm

Luuca wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:29 pm

Adding a longer CD on Cleansing Light or Gift of Life would necessitate either tuning up lifetap heals a little to compensate, and/or providing the AM with similar tools for kiting that the Shamans have (e.i. super speed on hit) as these two actions would remove a greater part of the utility of the class/spec in a group setting, further diminishing their inclusion into organized groups or warbands.
It is more very few classes have quite the punch and survivability as these classes. WP and DoK make huge sscrifices depending on their path.

As Peter said, classes like shammie, AM, WP, and DoK all have a fine line between being OTT and useless.

I do agree dps shammie and AM should be viable, and a lot of them just bottom feed, like WE and WH, which is not a problem, and would be nice if that remains the case. But viable 6-man AM/shammie groups in SCs sounds a bit nuts. Need screenies/reports though, to work out which teir we are talking. If it is T1, things could be altered without affecting balance in T4.

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footpatrol2
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Re: Why archmages are so overpowered?

Post#20 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:13 pm

What would be fun is to run 6 man archmage all with instant rez tactic and never really get wiped. You'll die a ton but would probably be impossible to wipe. Probably good for holding down locations.

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