SW-SH question

[zulnam]

You are failing to grasp some fundamentals here, and that is that they are not meant to be perfect mirror classes.

Also what we lack in crit dmg we make up in base damage via tactics, easily.

I don’t know what to tell you. SH does need some tweaking, but melee is the last place for that. The spec is very potent in aoe WBs; a good SH with guard can harass the backline to no end. Just because you don’t see big numbers doesn’t mean the spec/class sucks.

Melee SH has more utility and mobility. It’s not meant to be a mirror of SW.

[adamthelc]

That's a design choice that favors ASW to a degree that makes the class a perfect melee class considering that SW and SH mainly lacked %50 crit damage tactic compared to the mdps classes. SH's aoe dmg on the other hand is a joke compared to other aoe classes. Let's not forget that SW has already the advantage of being able to benefit from its ranged abilities on its melee face. I don't know but giving SW a crit dmg increase and ignoring SH doesn't make any sense to me and Design choice is not really an explanation that can change this at least for me.

It favors them in exactly one setting: small man. MSH has a huge edge in WB play (which most of the server seems to enjoy).

Mechanical differences are not related to the tactic change; yes melee SW has access to some of its ranged but on the same vein ranged SH has access to all of its ranged and escape tools 24/7 so it’s a trade off a majority of SH benefit from.

Just because you don’t agree with the explanation doesn’t make it the reason for why things are nor does it take away from the validity of the reason.

This is not an explanation this is just hypocrisy. Order players just keep justifying injustices by the excuse of oh well yes it is OP but only in small scale bullshit. Same was done for WL and now you guys try justifying this by the same excuse. '' it favors them only in small man". When it comes to the demands of destro side you again use the same argument in a twisted way and say oh well this is not a game balanced on small scale but WB play yet Order toons interestingly keeps getting that kind of improvements. I can't see a reason nor an answer to my question in the first place..

I don't understand your logic here at all ? It is not like ranged SW doesn't have access to all of its ranged and escape tools already. SO what is the connection of that with SW's advantage of being able to use its ranged abilities on its melee face as well ? Please make sense and explain how majority of SHs benefit from that really ?

He was referring to the fact that SWs have stance requirements on some of their ranged attacks while SHs dont.

It's not like anyone made the choice to prevent SHs from using ranged attacks while in squig armor, except maybe mythic. Also without the stance requirements SWs have if SHs were somehow allowed to use ranged attacks, they would be able to use all of them, something a SW cant do.

The one thing they might be able to do is reduce the CD on squig armor to match the CD on switching stances.

Everything else you are talking about has less validity. The classes arent mirrors. They dont need to play the same way or have the exact same goodies.

[Knowthyself]

It favors them in exactly one setting: small man. MSH has a huge edge in WB play (which most of the server seems to enjoy).

Mechanical differences are not related to the tactic change; yes melee SW has access to some of its ranged but on the same vein ranged SH has access to all of its ranged and escape tools 24/7 so it’s a trade off a majority of SH benefit from.

Just because you don’t agree with the explanation doesn’t make it the reason for why things are nor does it take away from the validity of the reason.

This is not an explanation this is just hypocrisy. Order players just keep justifying injustices by the excuse of oh well yes it is OP but only in small scale bullshit. Same was done for WL and now you guys try justifying this by the same excuse. '' it favors them only in small man". When it comes to the demands of destro side you again use the same argument in a twisted way and say oh well this is not a game balanced on small scale but WB play yet Order toons interestingly keeps getting that kind of improvements. I can't see a reason nor an answer to my question in the first place..

I don't understand your logic here at all ? It is not like ranged SW doesn't have access to all of its ranged and escape tools already. SO what is the connection of that with SW's advantage of being able to use its ranged abilities on its melee face as well ? Please make sense and explain how majority of SHs benefit from that really ?

He was referring to the fact that SWs have stance requirements on some of their ranged attacks while SHs dont.

It's not like anyone made the choice to prevent SHs from using ranged attacks while in squig armor, except maybe mythic. Also without the stance requirements SWs have if SHs were somehow allowed to use ranged attacks, they would be able to use all of them, something a SW cant do.

The one thing they might be able to do is reduce the CD on squig armor to match the CD on switching stances.

Everything else you are talking about has less validity. The classes arent mirrors. They dont need to play the same way or have the exact same goodies.

I play both classes and stance dancing on SW is as easy with the correct setup of hotkeys and addons. Can make a tutorial video for those who doesn't know how...

I am not saying they are the exact mirrors but they have been treated as if they are during the recent patches. Just because SH got a pounce SW had also one for instance. The problem here is also about how things were done. Sw was already more than a potent class in group with the changes made on its melee face without having that tactic. That was one of the reasons I lvled up a SW with also the request of some guildies that wanted to have an order setup to change sides depending on the aao. However, all of a sudden they implemented that tactic and I am not even sure if that change was even on patch notes..

I have a rr55 SW and a rr79 SH and there is a gap between the dmg output even though my SW is lower on both rr and gear. It wouldn't change anything for me since I will keep playing both classes. But I find it unfair and that's why I wanted to open a thread about it..

They are not exact mirror classes is not a good explanation since as I already mentioned above those classes only lacked a crit increase tactic compared to other mdps classes. However, now SW has it while SH got nothing. This is unfair and smells like bias..

[Manatikik]

This is not an explanation this is just hypocrisy. Order players just keep justifying injustices by the excuse of oh well yes it is OP but only in small scale bullshit. Same was done for WL and now you guys try justifying this by the same excuse. '' it favors them only in small man". When it comes to the demands of destro side you again use the same argument in a twisted way and say oh well this is not a game balanced on small scale but WB play yet Order toons interestingly keeps getting that kind of improvements. I can't see a reason nor an answer to my question in the first place..

I don't understand your logic here at all ? It is not like ranged SW doesn't have access to all of its ranged and escape tools already. SO what is the connection of that with SW's advantage of being able to use its ranged abilities on its melee face as well ? Please make sense and explain how majority of SHs benefit from that really ?

He was referring to the fact that SWs have stance requirements on some of their ranged attacks while SHs dont.

It's not like anyone made the choice to prevent SHs from using ranged attacks while in squig armor, except maybe mythic. Also without the stance requirements SWs have if SHs were somehow allowed to use ranged attacks, they would be able to use all of them, something a SW cant do.

The one thing they might be able to do is reduce the CD on squig armor to match the CD on switching stances.

Everything else you are talking about has less validity. The classes arent mirrors. They dont need to play the same way or have the exact same goodies.

I play both classes and stance dancing on SW is as easy with the correct setup of hotkeys and addons. Can make a tutorial video for those who doesn't know how...

I am not saying they are the exact mirrors but they have been treated as if they are during the recent patches. Just because SH got a pounce just because SW had one. The problem here is also about how things were done. Sw was already more than a potent class in group with the changes made on its melee face without having that tactic. That was one of the reasons I lvled up a SW with also the request of some guildies that wanted to have an order setup to change sides depending on the aao. However, all of a sudden they implemented that tactic and I am not even sure if that change was even on patch notes..

I have a rr55 SW and a rr79 SH and there is a gap between the dmg output even though my SW is lower on both rr and gear. It wouldn't change anything for me since I will keep playing both classes. But I find it unfair and that's why I wanted to open a thread about it..

They are not exact mirror classes is not a good explanation since as I already mentioned above those classes only lacked a crit increase tactic compared to other mdps classes. However, now SW has it while SH got nothing. This is unfair and smells like bias..

If you think my comment about access to range abilities is a comment on Stance mechanic you are very poorly informed on how the two classes you claim to play are structured ability wise, build wise, and playstyle wise.

I'd also like to point out how MSH requires rr40 and Conq gear to be effective while ASW requires RR70 and at least Vanq to be effective (plenty of people run it lower but they are literally just fodder at that point). Again, they are balanced for different things which makes the mirrors fun and unique imo.

[DanielWinner]

The crit tactic was originally my idea because I posted it on forum in a form of Balance proposal.
I agree that SH doesn't have the same burst as SW in melee but SW also doesn't have the same WB potential.
So currently we have SW being a good pick in small scale and SH being a good pick for WB (cc dealer and 2400 M4 pusher) and optional pick as a range dps for small scale.
SH could get a bit more attention but as I mentioned in that case it's WB tools might get looked at (or not, I never had problems with buffing classes because when everything is OP, nothing is OP).
Also SW is NOT a perfect melee and never was (before the tactic it was a meme build and I played it more than anyone). Even in the great and terrible trio of SM, SW and WL, SW is the weak link. I played it and I played against it. I know who is the easiest to control and take down. As a tank player, I know that there is another class which I can't handle and play around successfully in certain environment. And as for SW, counterplay exists.

And get me right, I play both sides and always look for classes and combos to beat both sides. And if I wanted to whine about something because I can't beat Order, SW wouldn't be the one.

[Knowthyself]

The crit tactic was originally my idea because I posted it on forum in a form of Balance proposal.
I agree that SH doesn't have the same burst as SW in melee but SW also doesn't have the same WB potential.
So currently we have SW being a good pick in small scale and SH being a good pick for WB (cc dealer and 2400 M4 pusher) and optional pick as a range dps for small scale.
SH could get a bit more attention but as I mentioned in that case it's WB tools might get looked at (or not, I never had problems with buffing classes because when everything is OP, nothing is OP).
Also SW is NOT a perfect melee and never was (before the tactic it was a meme build and I played it more than anyone). Even in the great and terrible trio of SM, SW and WL, SW is the weak link. I played it and I played against it. I know who is the easiest to control and take down. As a tank player, I know that there is another class which I can't handle and play around successfully in certain environment. And as for SW, counterplay exists.

And get me right, I play both sides and always look for classes and combos to beat both sides. And if I wanted to whine about something because I can't beat Order, SW wouldn't be the one.

Well as your post also proves SH doesn't really have a place in warband because of its dps since its aoe dmg is just funny, but the cc. The only thing in that matter you can count as burst is m4 and good luck on reaching to M4 with a class required to jump into backgrounds in order to use its cc tools. I played with my SW(rr55) in different setups and it is potent in every setup WL+SW , Slayer+ SW, WH+SW, BW+SW, even AM+SW). Same or a similar tactic could have been given to SH as well to bring a DPS potential to the class.

[Knowthyself]

He was referring to the fact that SWs have stance requirements on some of their ranged attacks while SHs dont.

It's not like anyone made the choice to prevent SHs from using ranged attacks while in squig armor, except maybe mythic. Also without the stance requirements SWs have if SHs were somehow allowed to use ranged attacks, they would be able to use all of them, something a SW cant do.

The one thing they might be able to do is reduce the CD on squig armor to match the CD on switching stances.

Everything else you are talking about has less validity. The classes arent mirrors. They dont need to play the same way or have the exact same goodies.

I play both classes and stance dancing on SW is as easy with the correct setup of hotkeys and addons. Can make a tutorial video for those who doesn't know how...

I am not saying they are the exact mirrors but they have been treated as if they are during the recent patches. Just because SH got a pounce just because SW had one. The problem here is also about how things were done. Sw was already more than a potent class in group with the changes made on its melee face without having that tactic. That was one of the reasons I lvled up a SW with also the request of some guildies that wanted to have an order setup to change sides depending on the aao. However, all of a sudden they implemented that tactic and I am not even sure if that change was even on patch notes..

I have a rr55 SW and a rr79 SH and there is a gap between the dmg output even though my SW is lower on both rr and gear. It wouldn't change anything for me since I will keep playing both classes. But I find it unfair and that's why I wanted to open a thread about it..

They are not exact mirror classes is not a good explanation since as I already mentioned above those classes only lacked a crit increase tactic compared to other mdps classes. However, now SW has it while SH got nothing. This is unfair and smells like bias..

If you think my comment about access to range abilities is a comment on Stance mechanic you are very poorly informed on how the two classes you claim to play are structured ability wise, build wise, and playstyle wise.

I'd also like to point out how MSH requires rr40 and Conq gear to be effective while ASW requires RR70 and at least Vanq to be effective (plenty of people run it lower but they are literally just fodder at that point). Again, they are balanced for different things which makes the mirrors fun and unique imo.

"melee SW has access to some of its ranged but on the same vein ranged SH has access to all of its ranged and escape tools 24/7 so it’s a trade off a majority of SH benefit from." I told that comment of yours made no sense. And the person I replied there explained it with stance mechanic that was a reply to that. Yet your comment still doesn't make any sense in term of "structured ability wise, build wise, and playstyle wise"..

"MSH requires rr40 and Conq gear to be effective while ASW requires RR70 and at least Vanq to be effective". I do not agree to that joke at all. I have a three piece dominator and 3 piece conq setup and it works pretty well in group setups.

[zulnam]

This conversation is futile. Multiple people are saying the same thing more or less, yet you continue to push your theory.

It sounds to me like you don’t want a conversation; your mind is made up.

[DanielWinner]

I'd love to see three piece dominator and 3 piece conq SW against, let's say, Montague on destro or Fusion. Since it works pretty well in group setups.

[Manatikik]

I'd love to see three piece dominator and 3 piece conq SW against, let's say, Montague on destro or Fusion. Since it works pretty well in group setups.

I would pay money to see a 3 dom 3 conq rr55 ASW try to fight fusion with DPS dok.

So since you apparently are not aware a ranged SH has better kite, burst, and survival than SW does. This is through the pets ability to assist in kite damage, auto detaunt, run away x2, Finish Them Off being available to a Quick Shootin build, and Exploding Errer being 100 ft and available all the time. SW’s only advantages over SH are RKD (which is freaking great, don’t get me wrong) and more crit chance. SW (long time ago now) used to be better at everything except kiting over the SH but due to nerfs they are now weaker in these areas.