TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

[murmelon]

In far far future...
awaits us Patch 1.4.9. Who knows... Maybe, it will affect on tanks balance.
I propose this content to patch, which must balance tanks. Also, to do useless abilities make playable. It should lead to new builds, combo, combat tactics etc.

Far future. Patch 1.4.9.
General
1. The game remains without potions/oils which add armor and main characteristics (strength, intellect, willpower, wounds, critically heal/damage, etc.)
2. In the game there are only potions which add health/AP and potions that have effect of snares,dot,etc.
Argument:
eight tanks skills add armor's value,
also 4 tactics, 2 prayers, 3 self buffs and a few morales.
As you know the effect of potions doesn't stuck with buffs.
3. Stagger effects:
AOE Stagger (skills) - duration is 5 seconds.
AOE Stagger (morales) - duration is 7 seconds.
Direct Stagger (skills) - duration is 9 seconds.

Swordmaster

Spoiler:

BlackGuard

Spoiler:

BlackOrc

Spoiler:

Knight of the Blazing Sun

Spoiler:

Ironbreaker and Chosen seems normally balanced.

Discuss and comment

[Rizzrack]

I can't comment on sm but for blorc you know what would be amazing? Moving down you go farther down the tree instead of it being so far up the mastery tree, during the 5/22 patch when trying out all the class abilities it was amazing to have acess tree hit combo, down you go AND not in da face something that not really possible on live

The lack "good" of cc and not having anything unique to bring to the table that the other 2 faction tanks can do better is what makes them suffer, this might be something that could alleviate that

[Sulorie]

General
1. The game remains without potions/oils which add armor and main characteristics (strength, intellect, willpower, wounds, critically heal/damage, etc.)
2. In the game there are only potions which add health/AP and potions that have effect of snares,dot,etc.
Argument:
eight tanks skills add armor's value,
also 4 tactics, 2 prayers, 3 self buffs and a few morales.
As you know the effect of potions doesn't stuck with buffs.

I don't want to comment the balancing measures as I don't prefer tank classes, even if I liked my BG and IB.

Those general suggestions are plain horrible. All you do here is punishing small groups or solo players, who don't have all buffs available and have to take potions for compensation. This is no improvement at all. Tanks already have roles, no need to give more value into their hands.

Btw, you're overbuffing SM and BO. Don't modify too many skills at once.

[Morf]

Balancing tanks is the hardest thing to do, i think if any steps are taking to do so first thing is to make some minor changes to BO and SM and then some minor nerfs to kotbs.
Also 9 sec stagger is to long, nobody likes to be rendered useless, i wouldnt have any CC that made you unable to do anything and not be removed last longer then 5 secs even if its breakable on damage.

[Coryphaus]

Balancing tanks is the hardest thing to do, i think if any steps are taking to do so first thing is to make some minor changes to BO and SM and then some minor nerfs to kotbs.
Also 9 sec stagger is to long, nobody likes to be rendered useless, i wouldnt have any CC that made you unable to do anything and not be removed last longer then 5 secs even if its breakable on damage.

+1 i agree 9 secs is waay too much and bo sm need to be buffed and kobs need to be nerfed to bring the class back in line

[Luth]

On the class changes suggested:

Besides the changes to SM and BO (some of them seem very questionable), i see the strong purpose to buff the BG with some tools the IB has and let him generally perform better without a shield.
There was a patch in the past, that gave the BG most of the stuff the IB has.
Unique abilities of the BG are not even considerered in the suggested balance change (M1, detaunt dispell tactic, wounds debuff+AA speed increase tactic, etc. pp.).

On the other side i only see nerfs on the KotBS. The knight would need to gimp his class mechanic to 1/3 of the efficiency to make one tactic worthwhile, srsly?
I would totally understand, if the suggestion would be to move the tactic(s) to another tank (SM maybe), but...
Generally the proposed changes on the KotBS look more like a nerf to one faction, than to balance tanks.

Also you write, that you want to make useless abilities valuable, but don't even touch the ones the knight has.
e.g.:
BG "Enraged Beating" should be replaced by IB "Cave-In". The knight has a similiar ability, which is more useless because it doesn't even have the secondary hate restore effect of "Enraged Beating".

No offense, but these balance suggestions look mostly like someone likes to play 2handed BG.

[Azarael]

No fix for the Focused Offense tactic proposed? How could you

[Tesq]

What about ...

BG:
Force of furry: need to be put on on 13 point mid path,
elite training :must became core in path of loathing and increase chance to parry by 100% for 5 second, the regen ap mirrored from kobs perserverance, Increase threat to monster. (BG have pve tanking problem both defense and in agro)
wave of scom: must be replace on 9 point on 3rd path to be in line wth chosen/kobs stag and IB aoe snare.
None shall pass: need to buff 5% block when channeling end (pve purpose)
M3 armor of eternal servitude : mirror from kobs moral root



BO:
Da greenest: must proc all resistence at once not 1 x hit; no steal just increase resistence.
Da biggest: steal x from each and every stats
Da toughest: need to heal party member
( all war bellow need a few sec proc limit like 3-4 sec)

swap on path disposition "down ya go" with "ya missed me"
You got nothing tactic: i dont know if heal only groupmate if it does it should heal even you
stop hitting da runts tactic: need better ap value or better balance proc with war bellow
Right in da jiggle: became medium knock back
More hardcore: effect need a mirror from someother tank like kobs
No chopping me: buff group mate for 5% critical chance (mirror from KOBS)
others i dont remember

Kobs:
encourage aim: from 10% to 5%
Dirty tricks: from 10% to 5%
focussed mending: from 15% to 10%, and kobs loose 10% heal
Runefang : it need to have wep skill and strengh value half of initiative value
Remove super punt
Vigilance: from 50% to 40%
basic KB became medium
On your guard: need a damage reduction taking in account there will always be 2 x tank in melee and 0/1 dps melee in destru party. Also that they either do skill + auto attack
precision strike: could need a low damage value but a better armor ingore do balance it with runefang and the too high armor penetration a 2h kobs can reach.
Preserverance: change from buff to blessing/enchantment
either nerf kobs ap "personal" regeneration from the 4 source he have: perserverance, stay focussed, to glory, bellow command.
Banishign darkness: replace with 1 mirror from BG
No escape from 10 to 7 seconds

Chosen:
chaotic advantage: need a mirror from IB
supert punt need to be removed
Base knock back became medium
destinated to victory: it could need a little nerf depending on his BO counter part and need to be mirrored ( this or the bo on 1 order tank, most likely SM)
Oppression damage debuff part effect should last fully 20 sec not 10. Either way it can be removed by enemy so.

IB:
Long held grudge. need a mirror effect from chosen/BO(something that buff group)
Relentles training. need a mirror from chosen/bo ( something that regen ap)
Oathstone : block attack for next 5 sec instead next 4 hits
Avenging the debt: remove the die part.
"Shield of reprisal" swap with "avengening of the debt"
Inspiring attack. must became aoe damage and feet ( 20-30-40 ) grudge based
Punishing knock. if inspiring attack became aoe, the debuff value must be lower to 25%

SM:
Heavens Blade: chance to increase all resistence
Phantom blde: must proc absorb to party member
Nature blade: steal x from each and every stats
( all war bellow need a few sec proc limit like 3-4 sec)

Forcefull shock: mirror bo or chosen moral tactic
"crushing wave" swap with "crashing advance"
"intimidating blow" swap with "redirect force"
intimidating blow became aoe, do spiritual damage but increase to 10 sec coldown (aka a mirror from rending blade :/)
redirect force: became medium knock back and remove threat component
whispering winds: aoe silence 4 sec, same tratment of choppa fasta ( and what should get shatter limbs as well), 2 min coldown
Bolstering enchantment, i dont know if heal only group mate if it does it should heal even you

[Azarael]

On Intimidating Blow: It's pointless to modify this ability to become AoE when Phoenix's Wing can be changed around instead.

Was thinking the same thing about Redirected Force, though.

[taccr]

As mentioned, stagger durations seem to be too long.

I would not do such a major rebalance of tank classes. Overall every tank had it's uses on retail, only SM/BO need a little more utility. What you are currently doing to KotBS is literally making most of the tactics useless and not giving any viable alternatives. This will eventually result in balance problems with other classes.

If you want to make classes more viable imo start with minor changes to bring them in line. Otherwise you will just cause people to reroll fotm.