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Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Structured balance proposals should be posted here. Posts in this section will be taken into account during class balance reviews.
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Marawo
Posts: 111

Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#1 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:06 pm

These are obvious smallscale changes and intended for a more unusual composition.
From the outside they look like they have similar drawbacks but in reality Mighty soul is really bad compared to it's counterpart.

DW doesn't affect bubbles, woundsbuffs/procs, potions and life transfers
(correct me if I am wrong on transfers circumventing incoming healingdebuffs or if they only ignore outgoing healing sourced from damagenumber).

MS affects all of those sustain sources by increasing the damage received.

Something to consider as well is that chosen has much higher parry compared to knight.
Knight has actually the worst parry of ALL tanks, the only parry buff is locked behind a SnB ability linked to a tactic,
with the weaponskill from runefang gone there is no way to up your parry by yourself wearing a 2h.


The best way to fix this is to mirror the 20% healdebuff over to Mighty Soul.
That way you have a high parry chosen, Daemonclaw adds some ok parry as well and makes chosen hit harder with the strength,
and a knight who gets hit more often due to his low parry but has access to m1 bubble/m2 champion, more toughness/initiative from the runefang alternative, preservance and has a larger effective health pool in exchange and more practical reflect type abilities.

Taking 15% increased damage on a tank that focuses on migitation/damage reflection is not a good design choice.

(Inb4 someone thinks this is a convoluted boohoo runefang thread, it's not)
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Ekundu01
Posts: 306

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:32 pm

I don't think enough testing has been done to find the sweet spot of these 2 new tactics. Right now they are definitely aimed at small scale because in a wb setting the negative from both is enough to get you killed fast when you are a front line tank.

Mighty Soul thoughts:
With the changes to Runefang being a defensive tactic now instead of offensive i see potential with making a SnB knight with a punch while using MS in small man setting. I don't have a knight so i can't test this theory. Looking at how the trees are set up I think the knight is definitely in a better position to use the new tactic along with Runefang because runefang is now in the same tree that buffs your resist aura/debuff resists. I think Mighty Soul is definitely meant to be used in small man group stuff and not for the soloer. I think i saw one solo knight running it all weekend.

Discordant Wind thoughts:
Making a build around DW is easier because you can forget WS and go full STR (you could probably do the same on the knight). WS is really only for armor pen because you won't get much parry out of it unless you are stacking a ton of WS. If you run DW though daemonclaw is kind of wasted due to WS not being needed. Not needing WS allowed me to drop my 3 piece Beastlord for the WS and use other things like genesis. I did have to completely rework my renown points and all talismans to fully test out this new tactic. I think taking advantage of DW as a solo/duo is easier for the chosen vs the knights MS. 2handed dps is higher now with DW slotted but still no where near a melee dps level of damage. I still have more testing to do on my chosen.

I think both versions have draw backs depending on the situation.
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heybaws
Posts: 124

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#3 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm

Ekundu01 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:32 pm
Mighty Soul thoughts:
With the changes to Runefang being a defensive tactic now instead of offensive i see potential with making a SnB knight with a punch while using MS in small man setting. I don't have a knight so i can't test this theory.
Delusional. Runefang is a defencive tactic for 2hander, because as 2h kotbs you dont have any skill that buffs your evade stats. The fact that there is a 240 str buff doesnt mean that you can be yolo dps with that proc. Runefang was only option to buff your parry, anticrit and dodge. And since 2h kotbs has viable build for warbands, this tactic was **** crusial for him to stay alive, but apparently this is very hard to understand, not only for you. And SnB knight in small seting will always lose to 2h knight, simply because 2h knight can punt people every 10 sec instead of 20 with SnB, and being able to do punts that breaks guard ange as often as you can is very usefull.

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Marawo
Posts: 111

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#4 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:41 pm

If we take a look at possible smallscale scenarios it's apparent that DW is a decent and useable tactic, while MS is plain bad in it's utility.
Their offensive effects are also unequal spirit debuffs are widely available (sorc/magus) on destro,
Elemental resistance debuff is nowhere to be found on order.

But that left aside if you only look at the defensive debuffs:

1v1:
Dw easily comes out on top since there is no real healing affected by the healdebuff compared to taking 15% more damage,
deal more damage vs deal more damage/take more damage

Smallscale 2-6 people no healers:
same as above

Smallscale 2-6 ppl very little heal:
here is the spot where both tactics perform somewhat equal,
although taking more damage instead of getting less heals is much more unfavourable since it makes you more susceptible to getting burst down during a cc.

smallscale 2-6 ppl abundant heals:
lets say there are enough heals and you have to set up some serious dots/debuffs or cc's to get the kill in, MS just makes you that more susceptible to spike damage and getting hundred to zeroed.

In summary DW has a drawback that can be circumvented and doesn't increase your ttk just because your healer is ccd. MS makes you easier to get spiked in every situation, and is worse off if you include bubbles, pots, woundsprocs in your sustain calculation.

heybaws wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm Delusional. Runefang is a defencive tactic for 2hander, because as 2h kotbs you dont have any skill that buffs your evade stats. The fact that there is a 240 str buff doesnt mean that you can be yolo dps with that proc. Runefang was only option to buff your parry, anticrit and dodge. And since 2h kotbs has viable build for warbands, this tactic was **** crusial for him to stay alive, but apparently this is very hard to understand, not only for you. And SnB knight in small seting will always lose to 2h knight, simply because 2h knight can punt people every 10 sec instead of 20 with SnB, and being able to do punts that breaks guard ange as often as you can is very usefull.
There is already a runefang thread, this thread is concerned about the 15% more damage taken vs 20% reduced healing received from the 2 tactics mentioned in the title.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#5 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm

Marawo wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:41 pm Their offensive effects are also unequal spirit debuffs are widely available (sorc/magus) on destro,
Elemental resistance debuff is nowhere to be found on order.
You do aware that kotb's resists aura debuffs resists, including elemental one, don't you?
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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WARChosen
Posts: 67

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#6 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:49 pm

Marawo wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:06 pm The best way to fix this is to mirror the 20% healdebuff over to Mighty Soul.
OK but you will lost tactic Focused Mending and there you have your ballance
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#7 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 am

Well tbf you can inc parry with epic quest and city dungeon weapon
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Marawo
Posts: 111

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#8 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:53 am

Zxul wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm
Marawo wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:41 pm Their offensive effects are also unequal spirit debuffs are widely available (sorc/magus) on destro,
Elemental resistance debuff is nowhere to be found on order.
You do aware that kotb's resists aura debuffs resists, including elemental one, don't you?
Yes i am but 189 resistance debuffed at 13 mastery points in path of glory tree hardly compares to stacking resistance debuffs to magus debuff 236 0 mastery points up to 378 debuff at 13 mastery points, + sorc debuff is tactic based which means it stacks with either chosen aura or magus debuff.
You are correct though there is in fact a elemental debuff on order side, just a really shitty one.


TenTonHammer wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 am Well tbf you can inc parry with epic quest and city dungeon weapon
I didn't include those on purpose because those weapons are afaik available for every tank.
The whole point of that bit was that knight has the least access to parry from all tanks.

WARChosen wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:49 pm
Marawo wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:06 pm The best way to fix this is to mirror the 20% healdebuff over to Mighty Soul.
OK but you will lost tactic Focused Mending and there you have your ballance
don't try to make this personal, I play chosen and knight in small/large scale.
I sat down and did the math with various healbuffs/debuffs in a enclosed scientific setting with guildies to find out how the calculation works.
If you put up discordant turbulence chosen aura against focused mending you get 86% healefficiency
100+15% = 115
115 - 25% = 86%
ofc focused mending is easier to apply because it has 100ft range but the tradeoff is that you still heal for less than regular amount And you need to use 1 tactic slot as well. Before you go and mention "nows your chance" that is an outgoing healdebuff and only affects healers in 30ft radius of the knight which would require even more auraslot investment as well as being positioned on the enemy healers but that usually means you are already winning that fight.

That aside this tactic pair is supposed to have a similar/same impact which it does not.

The old mighty soul tactic only affecting path of glory abilities was more useful than the current iteration.
Discordant wind finds its use.
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WARChosen
Posts: 67

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#9 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:40 am

delete this double post
Last edited by WARChosen on Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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WARChosen
Posts: 67

Re: Discordant Wind/Mighty Soul

Post#10 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am

Zxul wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm


don't try to make this personal, I play chosen and knight in small/large scale.
I sat down and did the math with various healbuffs/debuffs in a enclosed scientific setting with guildies to find out how the calculation works.
If you put up discordant turbulence chosen aura against focused mending you get 86% healefficiency
100+15% = 115
115 - 25% = 86%
ofc focused mending is easier to apply because it has 100ft range but the tradeoff is that you still heal for less than regular amount And you need to use 1 tactic slot as well. Before you go and mention "nows your chance" that is an outgoing healdebuff and only affects healers in 30ft radius of the knight which would require even more auraslot investment as well as being positioned on the enemy healers but that usually means you are already winning that fight.

That aside this tactic pair is supposed to have a similar/same impact which it does not.

The old mighty soul tactic only affecting path of glory abilities was more useful than the current iteration.
Discordant wind finds its use.
I don't make this personal but when you suggest KOBS need a mirror Chosen debuf because "That aside this tactic pair is supposed to have a similar/same impact which it does not.''
Why you don't suggest to mirror Focused Mending you know that Embrace The Wing affect only Chosen not all in the party i think all player's who play Chosen really need that.
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