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[Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#31 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:49 pm

Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 pm
Zxul wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 pm
Dabbart wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.

Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.

Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.

A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.

Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.

Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
While it is true, the question is the following- if am casts a specific dot, then casts it again while having 100 more intel- does the dmg added by 100 intel is the same, as the dmg removed by target having 100 extra toughness, vs same specific dot? If its the same, then all fine, if however 100 intel isn't equal 100 toughness then there is a problem.
Technically it would be if that particular ability has a 1.0 ratio of Int. If, for instance, the ability has a .8 mod, then 100 int would give the effectiveness of 80 toughness. Or, if the ability has a 1.2 mod, 100 int would give the effectiveness of 120 toughness. You can test each ability by adding/subtracting 100 int btw. Again, damage numbers aren't static, so run it 10-100 times and take the avg.
Which also brings it, practically speaking, to two questions.

First, what is the actual rate- if it for example say 5.0, then toughness will really underperform vs that (and if its 0.2, it might actually be good idea for am to spec about say crit and not intel).

Second, which might be the case here, is the baseline dot dmg- if most of dot dmg comes from baseline dmg of ability, while intel even with 1.0 rate adds practically say 10% to total dmg (say +200 dps, but /10 sec of total dot duration = 20 dmg added per actual second), then both am might benefit more by going for something else then intel, and toughness adds very little protection vs dots, practically speaking.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#32 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 pm

Guys there is smth called stat cofficient

DD casr uses cast time
Insta 1.5
And most dots 3-4 if I remember correctly

Use these and bruglirs formulas as well as old blog post about casts together with changed toughness cap and maybe you can claim somthing is broken

Hint dot ticks arent hits (they dont proc or is avoidable)
Last edited by Bozzax on Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#33 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:53 pm

Dabbart wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.

Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.

Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.

A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.

Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.

Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
This sums it up pretty much.

------------------------------
@ soloing theorycrafters: without modifications, DoTs tick every 3 sec after application, therefore Law of Conductivity causes 5 ticks.
Dying is no option.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#34 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:06 pm

Toughness is ok vs dd (best vs melee dd)
Clns is great vs dots
Avoidance and armor / resist works on both (and procs)
% crit reduction is great
% damage reduced trumps everything

Game design ...
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#35 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:26 pm

Bozzax wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:06 pm % damage reduced trumps everything
Depends, it does nothing vs secondary effects (say, KD or silence), unlike avoidance.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

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Grimbur
Posts: 25

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#36 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:14 am

Dabbart wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.
You are right. Toughness is not a %, it is a flat amount.
But the offensive stat is also a flat amount.
Toughness has just one role: Reducing the offensive stat contribution to the damage.
So, theorically, If a 1000 int guy was hitting a 1000 toughness guy, the damage should be EXACLTY the same as a 100 int guy hitting a 100 toughness guy.
It is a substraction of the 2 values that should be in the damage formula. If the substraction of the 2 is the same, the damage should be the same.

So, i could accept your argument if 2 things were correct :
1 - The amount of damage that was mitigated by Toughness was always the same whatever the skill.
2 - Increasing the offensive stat and Toughness at the same time wouldnt change the damage of the DoT

For 1-, I repeat the numbers

a Direct Damage does 477(-313)
a DoT does 1610(-145) over 15 sec

313 and 145 are not the same values.

So, you added that there are other things there and there in the formula, strange skill multiplier, etc ...
Ok, whatever. The Toughness didnt reduce the 2 skills by the same flat amount. Period.

For 2-, I did some more tests (tried to keep the same (INT - TOU) value but couldnt quite get it right)

First test: Tank: 276 Toughness, Archmage: 284 Intelligence
DD 405(-108)
DoT 202(-9) (5 ticks 1010(-45))

Second test: Tank: 627 Toughness, Archmage: 632 Intelligence
DD 418(-248)
DoT 259(-22) (5 ticks 1295(-110)

The result are not as perfect as I expected but:
- The DD are pretty close (+4%)
- The DoT are not that close (+28%)

So, Point 1 is false and Point 2 is false
=> Bug

Dabbart wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.
In fact, they are.
Attack a target 10 times and you will get EXACTLY the same result.
Only the crits have a random value.

Since many people asked, I give a precision:

15 sec DoTs tick 5 times
9 sec DoTs tick 3 times.

Groumf, Dammaz Kron !!!

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Minipuce
Posts: 13

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#37 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:40 am

I am the archmage who did the tests with Groumf (Grimbur)

Just know that we did many tests and not just 1 or 2 skills.

We did tests with 9 sec dot (radiant gaze) + 15 sec dot (law of conductivity) + 24 sec dot (transfer force).
The mitigation was divided by around 3, 5 and 8, proportionnaly (24 sec dot is less mitigated than 9 sec dot).
We also made tests with instant DD (storm of chronos) + 1 sec cast DD (fury of asuryan) + 2 sec cast DD (path of asuryan).
We also made tests with the canalised skill (path of asuryan) which is, btw, mitigated like a DD.
All those with different toughness and intelligence.
We also made tests with physical dots and DD with a witch hunter and the IB hitting on the archmage using moral to bypass the armor.

Please, give some credibility to our tests. Grimbur did a good summary of the result of ALL those tests.

We were just asking if it was a bug or not.
If it is a real policy from the devs to make dots non mitigated by the toughness (because it can be dispelled or another reason), ok so be it. And tanks will invest in wounds instead of toughness.
BUT understand what it means : the toughness is the primary stat for all the tanks. It is the one that up at every level. And it is totally useless against most of the damages (only usefull gainst DD).
What would be the reaction if it was the same with ballistic skill, intelligence or force ?
Last edited by Minipuce on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#38 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:53 am

Did resists vary?
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Minipuce
Posts: 13

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#39 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:59 am

0 resist of course, we were testing toughness
Minipuce, 89 RP - Minilune, 82 AM - Minibulle, 81 WP
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#40 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:11 am

My best bet would be

1. Stat coff is applied to off stat only
> test 2 dd one 1s one 3s (stat coff 1 vs 3)

2. Tou cap is implemented in an odd way
> do testing where tou 50% off off stat just to be sure

3. Last possibility tou is handled diff for dots
> well if you prove all others then this is where we end up :)

Good readup on how it works (how it did work)
https://www.google.se/amp/s/bruglir.wor ... o-low/amp/
3 * (1074 + 632 – 1057) / 5 + 639 = 1028

Normally, people just discuss damagebonus (i.e. (int + mp) / 5) – being 341 here.

then you just do coeff * ( damagebonus – (toughness/5)) + base damage.

coeff is not always equal to cast time, though. Many single target dots have a coeff of 4+ (e.g. Baleful Transmogrification, Wracking Pains, Burn away Lies(!)), despite being instant cast.
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