Return of Reckoning

Sulorie wrote:With 700 willpower and max heal path you crit grp heal for 960-1080.

Ap drain and essence lash are similar. The first gives nothing, when cleansed or disrupted for 10 sec and gives enough resources for 2 aoe heals. The only advantage is the range.

Dok or WP earn the same value of resources to cast 2 aoe heals, when they hit 8/9 targets successfully. Parry can happen or they hit only a few, due to range. Furthermore they have to be at frontline. On the plus side is the lower cooldown on 5 sec.
Additionally they have a channel regen skill, which is discussed here.

Dok/WP heal half as much, when you calculated how much they can heal with 250 resources, this is true. I think albeit this is a valid statement, it lacks perspective on the whole picture.
Half cast time for half heal value opens options on what you do during the gcd you don't stand still to cast like other healers. You can do more actions in the same time frame, when others are immobile.
When you halve resource costs, then you give them a significant advantage over other healers, because you then choose between either full heal or half heal + mobility.

@vouzou: People who think those suggestions are not good or appropriate shouldn't be allowed to argue against it?

Offcourse they can argue but this topik isn't about arguing, it is about creating and balancing. It has to do with the 2 proposals and according to the rules for discussion you need to comment on those 2 only. Because honestly everything you are saying about DoK/WP is right the class isn't balanced and need more to fix. But here we have a change to start from a point maybe test it and see how it works. Atm we now that offahdn regeneration will not change so option A is out of discussion. That leave us with the other 2. Maybe none is good and destroy that class. Maybe one is good and is gona fix some aspects of the class. The arguing of who can heal better, why, etc. isn't related to the spirit of the post. And honestly if anyone else has to do any other proposal lets make it first to proposal thread and then let mods to move it to discussion.

vouzou wrote: Offcourse they can argue but this topik isn't about arguing, it is about creating and balancing. It has to do with the 2 proposals and according to the rules for discussion you need to comment on those 2 only. Because honestly everything you are saying about DoK/WP is right the class isn't balanced and need more to fix. But here we have a change to start from a point maybe test it and see how it works. Atm we now that offahdn regeneration will not change so option A is out of discussion. That leave us with the other 2. Maybe none is good and destroy that class. Maybe one is good and is gona fix some aspects of the class. The arguing of who can heal better, why, etc. isn't related to the spirit of the post. And honestly if anyone else has to do any other proposal lets make it first to proposal thread and then let mods to move it to discussion.

You presented 2 (former 3) solutions but we have to elaborate whether there is a problem.
This is the discussion board, so don't we have to talk about "1. Identify the issue" and "2. Explain why it's an issue" first before going further?

Sulorie wrote:

vouzou wrote: Offcourse they can argue but this topik isn't about arguing, it is about creating and balancing. It has to do with the 2 proposals and according to the rules for discussion you need to comment on those 2 only. Because honestly everything you are saying about DoK/WP is right the class isn't balanced and need more to fix. But here we have a change to start from a point maybe test it and see how it works. Atm we now that offahdn regeneration will not change so option A is out of discussion. That leave us with the other 2. Maybe none is good and destroy that class. Maybe one is good and is gona fix some aspects of the class. The arguing of who can heal better, why, etc. isn't related to the spirit of the post. And honestly if anyone else has to do any other proposal lets make it first to proposal thread and then let mods to move it to discussion.

You presented 2 (former 3) solutions but we have to elaborate whether there is a problem.
This is the discussion board, so don't we have to talk about "1. Identify the issue" and "2. Explain why it's an issue" first before going further?

That is happening on proposal forum. And if mods find it ok then they move it to discussion.

Let's be clear about something: I don't decide if there is an issue or not. I simply move those proposals that follow the format and rules of the BDF.

You raised an issue, and it is up to the players to debunk you (or not) in this thread. So yes: this is a forum for arguing.

Penril wrote:

Dabbart wrote:
Option A is Meh. Book/chalice regen from SC medallions is already raised from Live.

Can someone link me the source for this please? I remember the best chalices on live had 10, while in RoR they have 8. Why do you keep saying book/chalice regen is better in RoR?

Apostle's Chalice of Reckoning Destruction 5501543 Charm Off Hand 1 40 75
"+ 43 Willpower
+ 31 Wounds
+ 2% Reduction in being Critically Hit
+ 2% Healing Critical Chance
+ 24 Healing Power
You will gain 10 Soul Essence every second."

Goblet of Khaine Destruction 5758932 Charm Off Hand 1 40 100
"+ 105 Willpower
+ 91 Wounds
+ 4% Reduction in being Critically Hit
+ 4% Healing Critical Chance
+ 48 Healing Power
You will gain 10 Soul Essence every second."

Mbizi Djaf, Chalice of the Deathbringer Destruction 2000161 Charm Off Hand 0 40 0
"+ 43 Willpower
+ 33 Wounds
+ 5% Healing Critical Chance
+ 21 Healing Power
You will gain 10 Soul Essence every second."

Thanks Bozzax. We won't have +10 books/chalices in RoR though; suggestion A is already declined.

To put things into perspective

• Tyrant's Blood Offering Kit (6 Piece Bonus): You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.
• Worn King's Ransom Blood Offering Kit: (7 Piece Bonus): On Heal: 10% chance to recover 45 Soul Essence over 3 seconds. (Roughly ~7 Soul Essence every second)
• King's Ransom Blood Offering Kit (7 Piece Bonus): On Heal: 10% chance to recover 60 Soul Essence over 3 seconds. (Roughly ~9 Soul Essence every second)
• Doomflayer's Blood Offering Kit: You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.
• Warpforged Blood Offering Kit: You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.

So, a DOK in starter gear had ~15 Soul Essence per second while a reasonably geared one had 17 or 19. Note that even in PVE gear you could easily get 14 Soul Essence per second.

End gear dropped to 14 Soul Essence per second but the healing output was still much higher because of procs.

So if devs stick with 8 I suspect we will see very few dok /wp healers in game while going back to 15-19 would make them best of archetype again.

Discussing OP wo knowing what happens to armor SE regen is pointless.

(tbh not touching this class since I feel there is a high probability it will be utter s..t end game because of SE starvation, removed detaunt and cleanse changes. Also I personally expect every melee healing / close range healer patch/rework to fail)

off opic so apologise in advance

Inherit problem Dok/WP resource only gain by book, tactic, channel ability, and melee ability.

compared to other healers who are AP based have passive regeneration, Big AP pots, benefit from other classes bringing AP regen. Also certain proc who lower/make free next AP ability.

When compared to these OTHER HEALERS Dok/WP flaw lies in that no other way to gain resource.

So OP proposal falls short of asking WHY does said class fall behind in T4 and to some extent lower tiers where melee healer can get away while not dying in seconds, where burst is king and spamming High cost abilities to keep targets alive is only way to heal through focus.

Healing Dok/WP having to run into melee range to build resource is counter to what the class stats and role prioritize. Unless Melee healer built to sustain on front line hence medium armor with some absorbs mix in give it a somewhat fighting chance. That is for another topic.

Proposal 3 while interesting requires class to actually being hit, and if the player is backline healing running Willpower is optimal for bigger heals= less spamming. Going defense = less heals= more spamming constantly channeling resource skill every 5 to 6 cast to get resource.

Will it work possibly. But again it requires the player to forego any stat that will improve its desired role just to get hit and gain resources, no other class of this archetype has such a wonky condition to build resources.

Bozzax wrote:To put things into perspective

• Tyrant's Blood Offering Kit (6 Piece Bonus): You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.
• Worn King's Ransom Blood Offering Kit: (7 Piece Bonus): On Heal: 10% chance to recover 45 Soul Essence over 3 seconds. (Roughly ~7 Soul Essence every second)
• King's Ransom Blood Offering Kit (7 Piece Bonus): On Heal: 10% chance to recover 60 Soul Essence over 3 seconds. (Roughly ~9 Soul Essence every second)
• Doomflayer's Blood Offering Kit: You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.
• Warpforged Blood Offering Kit: You will gain 4 Soul Essence every second.

So, a DOK in starter gear had ~15 Soul Essence per second while a reasonably geared one had 17 or 19. Note that even in PVE gear you could easily get 14 Soul Essence per second.

End gear dropped to 14 Soul Essence per second but the healing output was still much higher because of procs.

So if devs stick with 8 I suspect we will see very few dok /wp healers in game while going back to 15-19 would make them best of archetype again.

Discussing OP wo knowing what happens to armor SE regen is pointless.

(tbh not touching this class since I feel there is a high probability it will be utter s..t end game because of SE starvation, removed detaunt and cleanse changes. Also I personally expect every melee healing / close range healer patch/rework to fail)

Don't forget the soc set also had additional static regen in the gloves if memory serves. As dok/wp sets went they where unbeatable for endurance.

Thx Toldavf

Actually 1 more from gloves and 2 more from ring (4more with 2x jewellery).

Edit:

So, a DOK in starter gear had ~18 Soul Essence per second while a reasonably geared one had 22 or 24. Note that even in PVE gear only you could easily get 14 Soul Essence per second.

End gear dropped to 18 Soul Essence per second but the healing output was still much higher because of procs.