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[Eng/Magus] Sticky Bombs / Seed of Chaos

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#111 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:33 pm

Grunbag wrote:It's not broken , it's useless : maybe for magus it's a bit different cause mid path is not a aoe tree .
Mid path for Magus is, basically, the same for magus and engineer and is AOE centric.

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Grunbag
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Posts: 1881

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#112 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:49 pm

When I mean it need more aoe damage , I mean more aoe direct damage .

Actually sticky bomb have a weak aoe explosion , with short radius (20ft) , and only apply at the end of the dot (15 second, or if the target died) and of course if you don't reapply the dot before the end of the ability .
So basically the aoe damage has really low chances to do damage to other target , 15 second is too long to planed an explosion. It's more often a last tick on the target that have the sticky bomb on him .
The explosion is supposed to be the great part of this ability compared to any other ST dot . Since you have too low chance to see the explosion hit many target , and due to the weakness of the dot and explosion this is useless to spend mastery point here .

That's why focusing on the explosion part of the ability would make it more usefull and powerful, and would fit better a aoe rotation.

We're not changing the whole ability , we're focusing on the explosion, to give a aoe direct damage to mid tree.

Edit : nitroglycerin grenade was something that belong in grenadier tree in begin of AoR, We're not creating this ability it already exist.
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#113 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:56 pm

Grunbag wrote:When I mean it need more aoe damage , I mean more aoe direct damage .

Actually sticky bomb have a weak aoe explosion , with short radius (20ft) , and only apply at the end of the dot (15 second, or if the target died) and of course if you don't reapply the dot before the end of the ability .
So basically the aoe damage has really low chances to do damage to other target , 15 second is too long to planed an explosion. It's more often a last tick on the target that have the sticky bomb on him .
The explosion is supposed to be the great part of this ability compared to any other ST dot . Since you have too low chance to see the explosion hit many target , and due to the weakness of the dot and explosion this is useless to spend mastery point here .

That's why focusing on the explosion part of the ability would make it more usefull and powerful, and would fit better a aoe rotation.

We're not changing the whole ability , we're focusing on the explosion, to give a aoe direct damage to mid tree.
While I disagree that we should be focusing on these skills the way they are...to get back to what the OP was going for, the 15 second wait time is silly. Moving it to 10 seconds would probably do the trick, while not making it game-breaking. The dot is actually useful since it is insta-cast and can be cast while on the run.

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Grunbag
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Posts: 1881

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#114 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:02 pm

Well with bombardment turret you can now cast on the move all grenade .

Reducing the time to 10 sec would also reduce the number of tick of the dot so makes it weaker
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#115 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:08 pm

Penril wrote:I suggest keeping heal debuffs out of this thread and making a new proposal for it. Giving these classes a heal debuff would be a pretty big change that deserves its own discussion.
big changes? relegated to a 13 pt, mid path with lower range both in skill and in turrets buff? bw can debuff from 100 feet magus would do the same. Also exclude snipe for base by being on 13 pt......
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#116 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:50 am

Grunbag wrote:Well with bombardment turret you can now cast on the move all grenade .

Reducing the time to 10 sec would also reduce the number of tick of the dot so makes it weaker
That is completely wrong. If you do the same amount of damage in fewer ticks...you do more damage per tick.

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#117 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:26 am

Grunbag wrote:Well with bombardment turret you can now cast on the move all grenade .

Reducing the time to 10 sec would also reduce the number of tick of the dot so makes it weaker
Not if the damage is kept the same. 1000 split over 3 ticks is ticks at a base of 333, rather than the current 5 which puts them at 200.

With grenade turret those 3 ticks would happen in 6s, vastly improving the dps, making it like a ST version of friction burn almost.

The reason why grenade dots are weak is the long durations combined with the low damage. But if you shorten the duration but keep the damage it has a big effect on making them more useful.

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Grunbag
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Posts: 1881

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#118 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:03 am

Tankbeardz wrote:
That is completely wrong. If you do the same amount of damage in fewer ticks...you do more damage per tick.
Alright, i was thinking having the same amount per tick but with less tick.
Karast wrote:
Grunbag wrote:Well with bombardment turret you can now cast on the move all grenade .

Reducing the time to 10 sec would also reduce the number of tick of the dot so makes it weaker
Not if the damage is kept the same. 1000 split over 3 ticks is ticks at a base of 333, rather than the current 5 which puts them at 200.

With grenade turret those 3 ticks would happen in 6s, vastly improving the dps, making it like a ST version of friction burn almost.

The reason why grenade dots are weak is the long durations combined with the low damage. But if you shorten the duration but keep the damage it has a big effect on making them more useful.
Does Sticky bomb have 1000 total of damage ?

Maybe having the aoe explosion at the impact instead of at the end ofthe dot would better, even if you short duration to 10 sec , it's hard to plan if your sticky bomb explosion will hit many target.
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Penril
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#119 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:05 pm

Tesq wrote:
Penril wrote:I suggest keeping heal debuffs out of this thread and making a new proposal for it. Giving these classes a heal debuff would be a pretty big change that deserves its own discussion.
big changes? relegated to a 13 pt, mid path with lower range both in skill and in turrets buff? bw can debuff from 100 feet magus would do the same. Also exclude snipe for base by being on 13 pt......
A lot of players aren't even following this thread since they think "meh, SB/SoC suck, i don't care if they get buffed". However, if the title was "Make SB/SoC a heal debuff", I bet we would see a lot more people posting here, mostly against it and trying to debunk OP.

Therefore, if you guys want a heal debuff for Engi/Magus, make a new proposal excusively for that.

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Tifereth
Posts: 134

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#120 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:14 pm

Penril wrote:...if you guys want a heal debuff for Engi/Magus, make a new proposal excusively for that.
I have to agree. No rule against a balance proposal directly leading into another, I suppose, unless said proposal got debunked. Personally, for engineer I'd rather see the earlier proposed wounds debuff, given that SW/BW already have a heal debuff. Giving engineer also a HD, I fear people would still pick BW/SW for the better synergy and buffs.

I don't see the need to put the HD/WD in the grenadier/AoE tree however, so I still think this balance proposal thread has it's own merits in regards to making the AoE tree more viable. A ST wounds/healdebuff does not make much sense in the AoE tree imo.
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