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[BO] Da Toughest

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#51 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:54 pm

Stay on topic. Last warning to EVERYONE.

Do you disagree with OP? Counter him with valid points. Do you agree? Stay silent until someone tries debunking him, and then help him. And we are only talking about DA TOUGHEST.

I want to be very clear about 2 points:

- It will break realm balance: Not necessarily. If Order's equivalent is also underperforming, it might get the same buff.
- Stat steal will still be better: If it is, then someone can make a new proposal in a few weeks. Or devs will adjust accordingly.


If you want to freely talk about this bellow, or any other skills, go to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=22370

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#52 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:02 pm

okok
it's not simple black and white issue i think.
yes It's underperforming as secondary spec, in dps( str ) build.

is it underperforming as main spec? in 800+ toughness build, in PvP?
this tree and bellow is shine in extreme survival situation.
destro have many tanks. they share burdens of cannon fodder. extreme survival is not popular build for them.
so it looks like underperforming but not by OP's reason.

it's hard to set standard. where to compare if it's underperforming or not.
sry my english, maybe i should silence and wait for buff.
but i just can't ignore process.
i'll add feedback as mirror and will wait deftard BO's real feedback.
until 5 pages discussion, i assumed many posts are based on dps/str build or PvE.

i'm not qualified but here's theorycrafting.
500+ hp with high block/toughness is not easily ignorable.
once you proc it, you can stop attack and do tanks job( HtL, CHM, challenge ) for duration.

i'll leave solutions for BO players
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#53 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:47 pm

DT up in all builds (please stop the 800+ Toughness derail)
Last edited by Bozzax on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#54 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:24 pm

What?

Deft tard tank is a decent spec to go. It is not purely about 6 man builds. We are talking about the class which incorporates all forms of the game. Not just 6 man builds. Yes other builds are superior in smaller gameplay. That is not in dispute. That is a very SMALL aspect of the game. Getting near 100% block value on a 11k health tank with 800+ ish toughness in keep defense situations, which by the way your gaining morale like crazy, has value. You lost your mind if you think it doesn't. You are not a burden for your healer's. It allows your healer's to focus heal more the real damage dealer's, which needs it. Your eliminating damage like crazy with that high of avoidence.

Da toughest bellow is part of that equation that helps you obtain 11/12k health. No other tank can reach those value's or that amount of wounds.

Not everything is cookie cutter. Break out of that limited mindset otherwise you'll always walk in the shadow's of other's.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#55 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:01 am

Not saying def tard is useless. I'm saying biggest bellow is better even as def tard.

Ini is simply better w BO low base ini and standing in MotMs. Guess zele buff can be a sub but there so much more to biggest even w 0 points in left tree
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#56 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:30 pm

let's say on practise a decend wounds buff (800-1k) for pve or keep siege with chosen and zealot buff ini would probably be better since you are gona play def especially in keep with hold the line etc, tough the value is very low. Should probable be 2 or 3 x of sm one since the absorb once it go it will re proc the wounds buff can't fade before the end duration ( tough SM require you to hit and no being hit)

In these situationsthere is a value problem.

Group sinergy
Regarding group synergy and group support is bad, very bad in anyother case, i would like to think this too as a pve/siege thing such as i do for NSP of BG but NSP for exemple is a skill on the mastery while these are mastery "stance"or kinda like that Now the buff stance is important for BO/SM as dictate to some extent the mastery you use. Now middle mastery is not only a pve mastery( there is no such thing as only pve mastery in game tough there may be some pve skill which is fine till they are not to ankward like WL pve stuff). So imo yes the mastery """"stance"""" should be more group oriented, as basically have 2 group oriented and 1 not mean basically 90% of the time enforce the other 2 mastery or handicap yourself to some extent by use mid one. Which mean even if it was designed as a pve skill that would be wrong in this case.

In the end anyway:
- the wounds buff is not strong enough to be use in said situations such pve or keep siege since is too low
-it dosent grant the mastery a group viability such the others. (tough da greenest is far from being good due stack problem)

1- I can see viable a buff in value to around 800-1000 for self purpose of said situation ; pve and Siege stuff /morales bomb where this could shine a bit.

1-A said wounds debuff made group wide is a possibility since order both have wounds buff/debuff (WP grace/ KOBS left mastery) while destru only have (but more) aoe debuff (chosen, BG..). Perhaps dev may make found another aoe wounds buff/debuff into order side (cross buff one on IB?) to have both realm access to a total fo 3 each realm.

1-b perhaps since is a def mastery the effect it provide should be double for the BO and half
for the group or same value but lowered from what would be if it would buff only BO.

1-c instead add the effect to group improve the valuee for BO only but give another small effect to whole group (5% parry ..duno...pick one)
This would probably solve the problem of the def skill needed in said situation while opening some def option

Keep in mind regading apply the same process to SM
You told something somewhere the thread and so, the proportion in values between wounds buff and absorb need to be subject to some considerations.

A) wounds buff wil not re proc and wont be removed as the absorb,
B) so absorb proc ratio can be potentially higer
C) but even no because is a passive buff so either SM became passive too or this 3x for exemple value need a reduction based on the efficency of the wounds debuff being passive while the absorb not,
D) absorb work pre armor /resistence while wounds not (but after) if i not mistake this is another condition to think about when balancing wounds buff and absorb buff.

-So if is tue that wound buff for BO is inefficient but both Absorb and wounds buff have, due how they proc and work, both contr and pro then the values whould be similar or close enough to each other at the end.

-Due btw these value be inferior currently for tank job dosent mean BO/sm by doing these should buff for the same value other party member. So this lead again to yes increase both the value to a viable tanking tool for both in siege/pve situation if that's the aim but then->Nerf the values for the rest of the party or buff a bit more the other 5 ppl and a bit less the BO/SM. IS a bit a dog that bite his tail but should not be too hard to get.

-Want to point out that btw SM is alredy "THE" absorb tank and give him even more absorb for s+b build could be a bit too much and since it have alredy a absorb tactic on mid mastery maybe the same process on SM could take a different way rather than just copypaste on the absorb the changes done to the BO wouds buff (since maybe on pure absorb buff vs wounds buff SM is better than BO for himself).
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#57 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:21 am

I'd like to state that the BO should be looked by itself and no consideration should be thrown into this thread for the SM.

The BO and SM share the same mechanic and some abilities are loosely mirrored but they are drastically different. For example: The SM has a on demand avoidence baseline ability via Wall of darting steel where the BO has to spec into it. Just because some abilities are mirrored does not mean they should have equal strength on those abilities.

I suggest that the SM never enter this thread for discussion.

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DokB
Posts: 538

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#58 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:31 am

Hi all, long time reader, first time poster. go ez im new

OP Solution 1:

I think most of us can agree that this shouldn’t be considered for obvious and previous reasons stated in the rest of the thread. It would eliminate the distinction between what bellow you choose if you can just turn on several bellows and forget about them, much like how the Chosen/Knight turns on auras and forgets about them which is something I believe the devs said they would like to move away from or at least assign some form of tactical use to them rather than just been “use and forget” auras/bellows.

OP Solution 2:

I think this idea would be the easiest to implement/trial. However a 32 wound group buff every 10 seconds (give or take 1-2 seconds depending on the RnG factor/CC) still doesn’t make the bellow a desirable alternative to Da Biggest/Da Greenest. If we were to take this solution, we should substantially increase the wounds buff. I’d agree with a 96 Wounds buff at maximum investment in the middle tree (like Bozzax suggested), maybe 72 Wounds at mid investment (if you just go for DYG) with the minimum wounds buff raised to 48 from 32. The buff would remain un-refreshable until the buffs duration finishes.

If a group buff proves to be too much or turns the BO into one of the best group non-healers in the game :), we could keep the bellow as a solo buff, but we should look at increasing the wounds buff at the very least anyway to make up for how unnoticeable the bellow is in its current form.


OP Solution 3:

Solution 3 would be nice for 2h builds, but I can’t really think how you could make this work or where to start with it. 0 investment in the middle tree would give X number of percent parry and increase by how much to a maximum of what value? I think keeping the bellow as a wounds buff is the best option as it ties in nicely with how the BO is built around having large amounts of wounds from racial tactic I'm Da Biggest. If you wanted to look at incorporating some form of dodge/disrupt/parry buff into the bellow, again I would have to agree with Bozzax and tie any form of d/d/p buff to a wounds buff.
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest

Post#59 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:02 pm

2 weeks have passed. Locking.

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