[BO] Da Toughest

[TenTonHammer]

I feel like we're going nowhere. We're theorycrafting on what problems might happen if X solution goes live, but we aren't trying to get new solutions out.

I personally think that my third solution is the best one, but many think it would be too strong. What about making it work with 2h only? I think 2h tanks need to be incentivized and that could be a first step for BOs at least. (Could have drawbacks in pve, i've never pve'd in WAR so i don't really know if it would be a massive hit)

What are YOUR solutions?

Parry is a stat that would only benefit melee grps and in the context of that Da Biggest would still be a better option and chosen DOES NOT need any more free parry, tieing a bellow to 2H wouldnt solve the issue, if the 2H BO playstyle is not to be a meme any longer it should be addesed via making Da Big Un actual good ability via a tactic or something that Torq menntioned was a possiblity in the future


Of the 3 options stated i still feel that option 2 is the one that would make it a competitve alternative to Da Biggest

[Collateral]

If my opinion means anything, the bellow is only used for farming, and that's a complete waste of an entire stance. The devs themselves said they want to balance the game around group play. So why have things that will absolutely never be used? And the same applies to all 'pve only' abilities, no matter what class has them. If you make it a potent group heal, it can still be used in solo farming, but also in a group enviorment.

[Bozzax]

The healing ouput be it 420 over 10s or 960 over 10s will never be noticable in grp play. It is 100% fluff.

A 420/960 group wounds buff would be noticable but giving it to one realm only breaks realm balance. Also a BO using DB yield more value for the grp in 99% of the cases.

Making it a bellow for saving your own ass / supporting 2h builds makes sense since BO lack in this area compared to all 5 other tanks.

First I'd bump it to 96 self wounds since SM eqviv can proc several times in a 10s window. Secondly slap a +25% p/d/d buff on it and a +10% block on SM bubble.

+25% is about right considering the rng activation has proc delay and req melee range. Other classes get 25-50 instantly from abilities just saying

Regarding the mid tree tactic: it is 100% manure and have no place in any build

Rugged is better
Spirit res is better
Block is better
Morale on block is better
Wounds is better
Loudmouth is better

Snare is mandatory

[Collateral]

Breaking realm balance? There's a number of things that break realm balance, e.g. insane morale pump on order (especially now that destro morales were nerfed), but the problem is no one ever uses it. If order did use morales properly, adding group wide wounds buff wouldn't be very op.

So now we still have 2 options. Either leave it as a self buff of some kind (p/d/d is really needed for BO, be it 2h or snb), or make it a group buff.

Spoiler:

What tactic are you talking about? The parry and block buff? It's a pretty lame tactic but it can still be used if you're going complete snowflake mode, but that's off topic.

Any buff to an underperforming skill from a class won't necessarily break realm balance since it is implied that its mirror might get the same (assuming the mirror's skill is underperforming too) - Penril

[Bozzax]

420 or 960 more health affects booring morale pvp ye (if it is one side only).

Spoiler:

Nod the rng block/parry tac that is amazingly bad

I'm suprised you use it even in snowflake build.

Mentioned it since it was being talked about as it was a viable way to get avoidance. It isn't it is 100% manure

[anarchypark]

Spoiler:

I will join discussion as SM PoV.
OP compared bellows only. where stat-steal eclipses all.

1- Not worth compared to other war bellows.

maybe it's because stat-steal is too good among 3 bellows.
we need to decide whether buff 2 bellows to level of stat-steal's utility or nerf stat-steal to par with other bellows.
my alternative solution - separate stat-steal.
stat debuff on dps tree, stat buff on Da toughest tree. ( same goes to SM )
it will balance between 3 bellows. it's nerf to class i guess.
or just test 1.4.9 change. looks like buff and balance.

you need to see what each bellows do in their trees and builds.
there are Da Toughest main build and other using it as secondary spec.

issue of main build

4- The buff doesn't refresh itself when active

60 wounds when 13pt? if it refresh itself it's gonna self heal.
how is it synergy with 160 wound tactic?
my alternative solution - increase value. ( you need to check SM balance too )
but i need more feedback from tanky BO.

issue of secondary build

2- AP cost to switch the bellow is too high.

i assume you are dps and want a bit of survivability depend on situation?
it's not meant to work like that. that's why it have high AP. u have to pay price if u want.
sure it would be good if AP goes down. but OP need to prove why they need buff for easy switching.

3- Low proc chance and requires you to hit enemies

i don't see the issue here.

so i don't agree with most of issues. just little agreement in issue #4.
hence, no agreement on solutions neither.
just adding some comments.

parry buff will synergy with Bring 'Em On. funny no BO players mention this.
maybe BO don't have parry buff cuz of this tactic.

No, we don't need to decide if stat steal is too good. If you wan't to discuss that, make a proposal for stat steal. This thread is about Da Toughest!.

Do you agree it is underperforming? Then don't post unless someone tries to debunk OP. At that point, you counter debunk.

Do you think it is NOT underperforming? Debunk OP.

From now on I will warn (and then ban) people not following these simple rules - Penri

[TenTonHammer]

Spoiler:

Make Da Toughest the destro mirror to keg, and there you go relm imbalance addressed

User received a warning for this post.

[Bozzax]

Lets not derail to a nerf statsteal thread.

Spoiler:

random statsteal < 3 passive auras
- 100% uptime vs cold start (no stat steals on from start)
- pretty much the alpha stats for any melee (resists, toughness, strength)
- tactics that provide even more op secondary effects

When a group is set up
1. Main tank: Chosen / KOTBS
2. Off tank: BO/SM, 2nd Chosen/KOTBS or BG/IB

Keg doesn't affect morale PvP more wounds for one realm does

Regarding Brig Em on: No one uses this and the reasons are obvious to good players

If you are worried tho a +25-30% dis/dodge or a flat % incomin damage will do just fine

[TenTonHammer]

Spoiler:

I think a flat dodge/disrupt "aura" type bellow might be intresting


Would fit Bo's buffer tank role nicely

Make your own proposal for it then

[Collateral]

No, more wounds for one realm doesn't affect any realm balance, sorry that's just bullshit. Where do you even get this idea from, how often do you play in organized warbands? Have you watched our videos of order morale pump? Like I said, if order used it properly there would simply be no chance for destro, no matter how you build warbands. I don't even want to mention aoe wounds debuff by kotbs (chosen has the same) which is almost a morale bomb in itself. But since there are no competitive order warbands I guess you don't need it. It's also not my problem if you don't like bombing, but that's just how rvr works. So making it a self buff should be enough. I guess I will end my discussion here, unless someone comes up with a new idea.