WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[Jaycub]

I am talking about premades. And yes the Marauder is the best mdps class. And the tactic that ignores armor is great aswell.

Why? Because the WL does low damage when the pet is dead. And that is the Problem because he is so easy to counter.

I'm also talking about premades. No one here is talking about Pug groups.

WL pet is a double edged knife. You deal more damage compared to a Mara (a lot more) when your pet is alive and deal less when it's dead. It's how the class works and always has. It's what makes WLs an high-risk high-reward class. It's a good mechanic, and shouldn't be touched. You don't want pets to become immortal npcs that you send on an enemy and proceed to ruin his life for all the fight. It's something that needs to be managed and the current mechanic does exactly that.

Tactic that ignores armor was great on live with insane armor values, it's not even worth using here against anything but armor stacking WP/DoK and tanks. Feel free to test it out and prove me wrong I guess.

Any WL in a premade setting who isn't playing against pugs run revenge, ya you lose a tactic slot but you offset the complete loss of the pet. Risk reward playstyle on WL died when pounce got a CD, it can't do any crazy risky plays anymore, just bad ones.

WL/Mara are being ran right now because of the ranged spam. You need to be relatively tanky, you need pull and you need m1 root. Give mara/WL the defense of the other 2 DPS and they are not run anymore, take away pull or root, they are gone and you reign in a 3rdps meta. WL isn't nearly as tanky as mara against physical damage, but it does more damage and has mobility tools mara does not. You'll find that good players playing these in 3-2-1 are speccing rather defensively as well, cw/RD is a staple as well as winds impervious and defensive talismans. Fusions mara was playing it really well in the last tourney in CW.

[Tesq]

@all did anyone even campared the value or the chance that wl/mara cant even save point/points and take other stuff in other mastery?

rr 70 best investiment in mastery atm =

bg debuff 1280
mara 1600

i mean 380 difference in armor debuff this is 9% armor more and since ppl are not able to link this with wep skill interation and how interact i will do it for them; lets remove 40% of this value due wep skill interation which any melee have; what remain is is 228 like 5,something %.

SO the real impact in armor debuff is 5% you are really all try to debunk the thread on this argument , this feel bias.

so 5% less real armor debuff but undefeatable and 5% but require to hit feel all pretty oksih here

[Scrilian]

Dealing actual damage for 3 seconds until the pet is dead again and run around for the next ~10seconds while waiting for the cooldown to resummon it - is hardly a good mechanic as far as anything "competitive" is concerned, unless you waste another tactic slot.
It's more of playing with a knife-handled knife so to speak

Anyway, this's sort of what I expected to see brought up, nothing more than again - small scale scenario comps - the side mini-game of WHO, all of which is pretty much irrelevant to the main theme of ORvR, where the effect of an extra 300-400~ 10cd single target armor debuff is barely noticed, if at all.
When couple of dozens of players on both sides collide, quckly drown eachother in hundreds of other powerfull debuffs and the engagement is pretty much gets decided most of the time before the mentioned "overpowered" debuff comes off cooldown.

Not seeing the requested hard proof on why it should get nerfed, why tanks get a special treatment in regards to debuffs on top of other tools they got and the reasoning on why the overall, in my opinion, underpeforming Mdps should be balanced around tanks and somekind of mythical "meta-comps", and not within their archetype.

[GodlessCrom]

What if we kept IB/BG armor debuff as it is but made it aoe?

[Eathisword]

Look, I'd take the buff anyday right...

But personally, I don't think IB/BG would benefit much from this in a broad perspective. 1500 instead of 1200 (800) ain't changing anything. Knights are still #1 and SM still provide more damage (same for BO/chosen combo). Superpunt, Resist aura, group buffs/debuffs, those are the things that relegate IB to the back of the pack. Not armor debuff. I would like it solo/duo, but in group, it wouldn't make me less perma snared and superpunted away with no effective way to retaliate with my medium punt and long CD Earthshatter.

Hence, this swap feels clearly like a nerf WL/mara for me (which could be a topic of discussion on its own), and adds very little to IB/BG in terms of desirability. Honestly, would you swap a chosen for a BG in party, because 300 more armor debuff ? Or a knight for a IB ?

So to answer proposal : No. Before it is clearly indicated that Mara/WL need a nerf, they shouldn't get one. And improving Ib/BG armor debuff is a gimp buff for them that don't help resolve the issues they suffer from.

[Bozzax]

Look, I'd take the buff anyday right...

But personally, I don't think IB/BG would benefit much from this in a broad perspective. 1500 instead of 1200 (800) ain't changing anything. Knights are still #1 and SM still provide more damage (same for BO/chosen combo). Superpunt, Resist aura, group buffs/debuffs, those are the things that relegate IB to the back of the pack. Not armor debuff. I would like it solo/duo, but in group, it wouldn't make me less perma snared and superpunted away with no effective way to retaliate with my medium punt and long CD Earthshatter.

Hence, this swap feels clearly like a nerf WL/mara for me (which could be a topic of discussion on its own), and adds very little to IB/BG in terms of desirability. Honestly, would you swap a chosen for a BG in party, because 300 more armor debuff ? Or a knight for a IB ?

So to answer proposal : No. Before it is clearly indicated that Mara/WL need a nerf, they shouldn't get one. And improving Ib/BG armor debuff is a gimp buff for them that don't help resolve the issues they suffer from.

Those 600 extra armor debuff roughly translates into a 14% incoming physical damage increase on the focused target for all allies. To get some perspective that was about the same as we got out of COVs during crazy proc meta.

An iB/BG (13pts) would by them selves be able to combine it with M1 for a 59% physical mitigation reduction (52% with current values). We both know an IB/BG can put out BO/SM damage if you know how to play and have good healers.

It would be massive and I don't think it would be a good a idea since any class providing those extra cheese 14% damage will be mandatory in grps. Pushing it to ninja nerf Mara/WL is even worse. (I still think that 1600 debuff should be lowered together with armor potions and tallies not like this though).

I bet my money we'd see 2x Slayer, IB, KOTBS, .. again if this is done

[Acidic]

the solution of swapping the skills seems to me sensible as mele dps have higher dps and with the added stronger debuts kind of makes them more standalone. If we moved the skill at least the dps is not a do all class.
But to be honest I would prefer to have the discussion separated so if WL /Mara is overpowered deal with that and if IB/BG are underpowered deal with that. This solution seems to look first as a solution from a simple approach without really analyzing what is a good buff/nerf for the particular viewpoint of what's best for the class.

[Dajciekrwi]

Spoiler:

Hi, i play Mara 6 last years , day after day, everyday, so i guess that i know something about fighting as mdps.
This all talk about "Mara is best mdps in game" make me laugh like crazy. Why, You ask? Because this game is 99% focused on rdps. In any bigger fight, Mara is at least a first target to kill. Why WL is better? Not by skills, not by armor debuff - but this faking
mobility and maneuverability, who let WL hit and run. If be true y can call a WL a "middle-range range dps" without exaggeration.
That is reality of battlefield- if y wanna survive as mdps, you must work as crazy.

And when i hear all these tanks crying about "to much armor debuff" in game where armor rules all, i answer: its brings all mdps classes to grave. Who need a weaker, soft ,mdps, when tanks give tons of buff, these same debuffs and live longer?

Yes, scissors always says " nerf rock, paper is fine, thx"

User received a warning- read the damn BDF rules.

[th3gatekeeper]

@all did anyone even campared the value or the chance that wl/mara cant even save point/points and take other stuff in other mastery?

rr 70 best investiment in mastery atm =

bg debuff 1280
mara 1600

i mean 380 difference in armor debuff this is 9% armor more and since ppl are not able to link this with wep skill interation and how interact i will do it for them; lets remove 40% of this value due wep skill interation which any melee have; what remain is is 228 like 5,something %.

SO the real impact in armor debuff is 5% you are really all try to debunk the thread on this argument , this feel bias.

so 5% less real armor debuff but undefeatable and 5% but require to hit feel all pretty oksih here

Tesq,

I feel like people are forgetting things like weapon skill and piercing bite on Mara, and correct me if I am wrong but didnt WL not even have an armor debuff at one point and it was added later? Details on that are fuzzy... I cant remember when it was added if it was live or just here in ROR.

To me, this entire post is a no brainer. It takes two classes that are basically the epitome of MDPS, and gives them a VERY VERY VERY small nerf, to make room for #1 New classes in "META" groups (IB/BG) as well as #2 starts to open up NEW build options for those very classes - because right now, WL/Mara get EVERYTHING in 1 spec.

I do agree with some of the other comments about armor talis and pots needing to be adjusted, but thats a different topic we can discuss later.

Huge Upvote from me on this (obviously).

[GodlessCrom]

Spoiler:

What about keeping IB/BG armor debuff the same but making it an aoe cleave? So instead of single target debuff overshadowed by better mdps debuff, it is a slightly weaker yet aoe debuff? Doesnt nerf mara/WL (and rdps meta means I agree with those who say we should avoid nerfing melee dps atm) and gives IB/BG a different niche ability.

We are not discussing that in this thread.