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[DoK/WP] Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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vouzou
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#31 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:11 pm

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Soulview wrote:Hello,

when I look at the possibility from other healer classes to gain ap and compare that to the fury reg from WP I need to say. Yes there is a lack of fury reg. At least since we removed uitlitys to go or even just dive short into the frontline when the enemy is overwhelming. I need to say since we removed AOE detaunt and nerfed grp cleanse i need to play more backline heal then ever. So I forced to do that what people complaining about regarding WP.

First of all some words to ap heal and fury heal in general.

AP healers benefit from jewelry with + AP reg, from armor parts with AP reg, from a higher AP pool with rr ups, from every class that brings a grp utility that raise the AP reg. From 2 AP pots with different CD at least one of them with a different CD to heal pots. You can also spec a higher AP reg with rr points. On the other hand is to say AP healers suffer under AP steal utilitys. But even with ap steal the all over all benefits are higher then the disadvantage.

Here some solutions we could do (and no not all toghter just want to show some different ways).


1. Fury reg on items.

1.1 OP already said it raise passive fury reg from 8 to 10 from lvl 39+ books.

1.2 Something that always bugged me on ror is AP reg on "book" armor sets. +4 AP is really useless for fury based healing. Remove it and add half fury reg. For example +4 AP reg on conq. chest will be 2 fury reg. But then be sure that fury reg is always on the same item slot so people can't stack it.

In general 2 more fury reg will be 1 grp heal all 30 seconds. So 4 will be 1 grp heal all 15 seconds. This solution will help in every situation. In keep fights attack and defend, in orvr zerg vs zerg in sc when the enemy is overwhelming and you cant go into front or midline.

1.3. Maybe add some kind of jewelry heal & deff with 2 fury reg. But if you do something like that make sure that only 1 jewelry with fury reg can be used at the same time.


2. Make WP harder again.

For people who don't see the context to fury reg. If you can go to the frontline as wp you gain a lot more fury. Somebody already mentioned it. WP doks with book are at the moment the only healer without a AOE detaunt, the only healer that need to stay close to the enemy to gain enough ressources for his heals.

2.1 AOE Detaunt

2.1.1 Easy way, redo the AOE detaunt change.

2.1.2.1 Modify weak version. WP's detaunt is only a AOE detaunt when you buffed yourself or somebody else with for example Sigmar's Vision and dok for example warding strike. When you used it successful you gain a buff for 10 seconds and this buff changed you detaunt to an AOE detaunt when you use it in this 10 seconds.
Let the AOE detaunt tactic like it is. So 2 Hand wps have with tactic an instantly AOE detaunt. Book healers need to hit something befor they can aoe detaunt.

2.1.2.1 Modify strong version. Like above only with strikethrough parry and block for sigmars vision and warding strike

I would prefer 2.1.2.1 It is weaker then it was on live. You still need to invest points to get it. You can't aoe detaunt when no enemy is in near you so no backline aoe detaunt. You can't aoe detaunt from the midline and then go into the frontline. You can't do it direct when you are in the frontline. You will have a hard time when there is only a def tank near you or a offtank with high parry, that means you don't get a aoe detaunt for free when there is a def tank in the backline. You can counter play it with range grps, and all what help to prevent that the wp is able to hit somebody or reach somebody he can hit.

2.2. Cleanse

2.2.1 Just redo the nerf. Because when there is for example a blackguard with outgoing healdebuff the fury gain from being in the frontline is not worth to fight against the healdebuff.


3. Some other changes

3.1 Sigmar's grace. Change the range back to 100 feet and make it like divine mend. So whispering wind and other CD decrease skills will have no effect on it. And give DOK the same spell. So people would have a second AP heal.

3.2.1 Jugement & Fist of Khaine change the fury gain from 15 to 30 and the cast time from 1 second to 0.5 seconds. So you still have better fury gain skills when you stay in the frontline but when you are in the midline you you have another option. You are able to gain in 3 seconds 60 fury for 1 grp heal.


Some last words. I know some of this changes are strong some are weak. How I already said. This are only suggestions to show some different ways.


regarding to things already said in this thread

Bubble tactic
no this tactic alone dont help you to survive in frontline only when you are overwhelming the enemy and they are not able to bring enough dmg or are not able to assist a bit.

Guard from tank
Yes that help you a lot but most players don't have a pocket guard tank. When you play random sc for example you already be glad when a tank guard a dd and both run toghter.
vouzou wrote: b) Make blood offering/ suplication increase the passive regenaration for 4 more per second for 5 secs with 10 secs cooldown instead of channeling.
I am not sure if I understand you right, sorry my english is not very good. So with no channel you mean you hit the button and have just a + passiv reg? If yes it would be to strong I think. At least it would help non skilled wps because you just need to hit this button on CD.
vouzou wrote: c) Both DoD/WP have a great tactic that increase the SE/RF by 35 when the hit. That has a 3 secs cooldown and 25% chanse to activate. Just remove the cooldown from this tactic and make it give 25 instead 35 per hit.
A good idea but it would not help with the core problem i see in fury healing. When you are not able to stay there where you receive dmg because it expose your positin to hard against an enemy who is stronger then your mates and you and this are exactly situations you need much more fury for healing.

Thanks for reading this wall of text

regards
Most of the time in oRvR you take dms on whatever possition you are front middle back. As DoK/Wp you just go in front and use your lash to replenish some of SE/Furry.
What i recomend is with option C is that you have one more ability to replenish SE/Furry beside Lash/Smite. This will help a bit but don't solve the problem.Still will be a step towards balancing DoK/Wp with the other healers.
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Korthian Dok of Phalanx
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vouzou
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#32 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:13 pm

Noiree wrote:Yes, WP/DOK need a little twitch, but not too much. They're not meant to be a solo healer for a group.

May I introduce another option?

D: Switch one ability from class-ressource-dependecy to AP-dependecy. Either the basic hot or the basic direct heal + hot. Same price.
(Reason is that cross healing sucks your class-dependent ressources dry.)


Regeneration shouldn't reach live-levels again. It was game breaking and far too overpowered (10 from book/chalice + 2 (?) from set bonus ---> grp heal spam).
What i believe is the best option "C" here won'traise the LvL of regenaration as was back on live. The answer here is obvious don't hit DoK/Wp and he will have hard time to heal. Hit him and make out lies a little easier.
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Tesq
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#33 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:34 am

Spoiler:
quote="vouzou"]
Noiree wrote:Yes, WP/DOK need a little twitch, but not too much. They're not meant to be a solo healer for a group.

May I introduce another option?

D: Switch one ability from class-ressource-dependecy to AP-dependecy. Either the basic hot or the basic direct heal + hot. Same price.
(Reason is that cross healing sucks your class-dependent ressources dry.)


Regeneration shouldn't reach live-levels again. It was game breaking and far too overpowered (10 from book/chalice + 2 (?) from set bonus ---> grp heal spam).
What i believe is the best option "C" here won'traise the LvL of regenaration as was back on live. The answer here is obvious don't hit DoK/Wp and he will have hard time to heal. Hit him and make out lies a little easier.[/quote]
We don't need time to heal, if someone is not hitting you are still not regenering essence, actually you are waisting 1 tactic slot, so exaly dont hitting him and wp/dok became subpar there are a lot of tactics which are a lot better to slot than this and give another as per idea another mandatory tactic to classes which slot the same 3/4 tactics in every set up is not even try to deal with the problem. Melee rec is not working as intended, the cost of any essence heals is ovepriced, why instead fix the problems you wanna try to force 1 tactic to nerf dok/wp even more? As detaunt and cleanse werent enougb, clearly some ppl dont know what burst/ focus target/ ignore tank / hit healers mean.. or play 100% the time front line.
Because this is what this change proposeto make use of thisyou suppose to alwata be in the front line or very close to the threatening range of most worst stuff it can happen to you, ask any premade dok/ wp and they will tell you where they healers stay; spread in backline away from snares and other CC.occasionally rec melee if they cant / situation allow , channeling. Best and safer way because in front line there is no risk vs reward and had to slot 1 tactic to regen essence mean you better slot 1 def tactic more and spec more willpower/heal criti insted cuz it still gve you same results for less risk. Since then you need less heals for heal as before but you still can play from backline.
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Penril
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#34 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:47 pm

Reminder to EVERYONE: Stay on topic. If you want to make your own suggestions, go make a new proposal.

Focus only on OP's 3 proposals (well, 2 since Wargrimnir already said we won't have +10 chalices/books):


b) Make blood offering/ suplication increase the passive regenaration for 4 more per second for 5 secs with 10 secs cooldown instead of channeling.

c) Both DoD/WP have a great tactic that increase the SE/RF by 35 when the hit. That has a 3 secs cooldown and 25% chanse to activate. Just remove the cooldown from this tactic and make it give 25 instead 35 per hit.

bloodi
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#35 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:12 pm

I honestly cant believe this went on for 4 pages.

Your issue is that there is a downtime when you dont use Smite/Essence Lash? Well, welcome to having to actually play your class, when you have a superior version of the group heal (1.5 cast time vs 2.5 for the other 2 classes) there has to be something that keeps you in check, if you dont get close and take advantage of a skill that gives you 15 ouf your resource per target hit on a 5 secs CD, then the problem its on you, not the class.

You cannot have the best aoe heal and infinite resources, other classes also cant just spam group heal and not run out of ap, they gotta stop and/or drain ap, cast their rituals and rely on other classes.

Your proposal are also puzzling to say the least, a passive regeneration bonus after you used BO/Sup would just make it a macro button, put it on the rotation, fire and forget, no donwside besides using a simple GCD. Changing the tactic to no have no ICD means that when under some dots, you could simply have infinite regen, it has an icd for this very reason, removing the chance woudnt be such an issue but the icd absolutely has to stay.

I think its perfectly fine, hell, i think its even good for the game that you actually gotta check your RF, have donwtime and ask for active usage of your other skills to maintain a RF pool, i cant figure why this is even discussed.

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Noiree
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#36 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:24 pm

Aye aye Master Penril, I shall do as wished. (no trolling, just to clarify)
a) Increase the passive regenaration on offhand from 8 to 10 to all items from SC for renown 39 and above plus the purple subjugator.
Definitely not. Reasons stated in post before.
b) Make blood offering/ suplication increase the passive regenaration for 4 more per second for 5 secs with 10 secs cooldown instead of channeling.
Question: Would it make the dok loose AP still? If not, way too overpowered.
And it would have to be a tactic or something that requires a chalice to work. Otherwise imagine the effect this would have on dps dok/wp. No problems to always channel rend soul full.
Also, you'd gain 4 x 5 = 20 of your class-dependent resource, not even enough to spend on a hot. As a pure backline healer, you'd still need another source for essence. And it would take too much time to gain the essence needed. Right now, you click, wait two seconds and get what you need.

The active channel should stay, in my humble opinion, because you need to leave a small open window to CC the sources of a healer. Other healers can be drained, dok/wp just regenerates, even after flee. It also makes the dok more interesting because in tense situations you have to decide when to stop the channel for the best outcome.
c) Both DoD/WP have a great tactic that increase the SE/RF by 35 when the hit. That has a 3 secs cooldown and 25% chanse to activate. Just remove the cooldown from this tactic and make it give 25 instead 35 per hit.
No, because you are a pure backline healer due to the changes. Getting in a position where you get hit on a regular basis to generate enough essence... well, you might as well just target yourself constantly, because the melee train will come for you. Thanks to the lack of detaunt, you'll have to harden up max and the heal output will be rather cute.



ALL IN ALL: A modified b), maybe.
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vouzou
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#37 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:39 pm

bloodi wrote:I honestly cant believe this went on for 4 pages.

Your issue is that there is a downtime when you dont use Smite/Essence Lash? Well, welcome to having to actually play your class, when you have a superior version of the group heal (1.5 cast time vs 2.5 for the other 2 classes) there has to be something that keeps you in check, if you dont get close and take advantage of a skill that gives you 15 ouf your resource per target hit on a 5 secs CD, then the problem its on you, not the class.

You cannot have the best aoe heal and infinite resources, other classes also cant just spam group heal and not run out of ap, they gotta stop and/or drain ap, cast their rituals and rely on other classes.

Your proposal are also puzzling to say the least, a passive regeneration bonus after you used BO/Sup would just make it a macro button, put it on the rotation, fire and forget, no donwside besides using a simple GCD. Changing the tactic to no have no ICD means that when under some dots, you could simply have infinite regen, it has an icd for this very reason, removing the chance woudnt be such an issue but the icd absolutely has to stay.

I think its perfectly fine, hell, i think its even good for the game that you actually gotta check your RF, have donwtime and ask for active usage of your other skills to maintain a RF pool, i cant figure why this is even discussed.
Nop my issue here is that smite/lash arn't reliable skills due to high parry. Iam not seeking infinite recources. From what i have test this tactic won't give's you resource when hitted by DoT ticks but only from the initial attack so i still will have to check my RF/SE so no i won't get infinite resources as you said. As for infinitive resource on other classes check AM wild healing and resorative burst combination. It is the only class with practical infinitive resources when using aoe.
I don't say i disagree about your last comment maybe removing completely the CD is too op. From the other hand maybe if we remove completely the CD and make the SE/RF gained to 15 it is good. Dunno what it is better but we need to test it in order to don't make the class very OP. So if you don't play DoK/WP as main don't be negative on this proposal. Lets try to test it and see how we can make it more balanced.

Thanks
Korthian Dok of Phalanx
Korthi Wp of Zerg

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vouzou
Posts: 133

Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#38 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Noiree wrote:Aye aye Master Penril, I shall do as wished. (no trolling, just to clarify)
a) Increase the passive regenaration on offhand from 8 to 10 to all items from SC for renown 39 and above plus the purple subjugator.
Definitely not. Reasons stated in post before.
b) Make blood offering/ suplication increase the passive regenaration for 4 more per second for 5 secs with 10 secs cooldown instead of channeling.
Question: Would it make the dok loose AP still? If not, way too overpowered.
And it would have to be a tactic or something that requires a chalice to work. Otherwise imagine the effect this would have on dps dok/wp. No problems to always channel rend soul full.
Also, you'd gain 4 x 5 = 20 of your class-dependent resource, not even enough to spend on a hot. As a pure backline healer, you'd still need another source for essence. And it would take too much time to gain the essence needed. Right now, you click, wait two seconds and get what you need.

The active channel should stay, in my humble opinion, because you need to leave a small open window to CC the sources of a healer. Other healers can be drained, dok/wp just regenerates, even after flee. It also makes the dok more interesting because in tense situations you have to decide when to stop the channel for the best outcome.
c) Both DoD/WP have a great tactic that increase the SE/RF by 35 when the hit. That has a 3 secs cooldown and 25% chanse to activate. Just remove the cooldown from this tactic and make it give 25 instead 35 per hit.
No, because you are a pure backline healer due to the changes. Getting in a position where you get hit on a regular basis to generate enough essence... well, you might as well just target yourself constantly, because the melee train will come for you. Thanks to the lack of detaunt, you'll have to harden up max and the heal output will be rather cute.



ALL IN ALL: A modified b), maybe.
If we can make it work like drain but the oposite. It till drain a certain amount of AP per sec to give it back as SE/RF with no channel. That means that if you are out of AP you can't use it or replenish your SE/RF. It not bad idea.

Thanks
Korthian Dok of Phalanx
Korthi Wp of Zerg

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Tesq
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#39 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:06 pm

If we have to stick to b and c then both are passive (aka no skll by player and no management in essence) and replace 1 tactic dosent help since you need to loose one.
Without make dok wp even more backline if is really need to be one of those 2 then B but applied to essence lash/smite and NOT to the channeling.
Idk why we should encourage even more the backline thing. The channeling aim iis to be used ONLY when the melee rec is not viable as alterative. It was introduced for allow dok/wp to regen on keep walls.....improving that skill for more use everywhere is definetly wrong.
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Penril
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Re: DoK/WP Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

Post#40 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:14 pm

It doesn't need to be one of those 2. We are only DISCUSSING those 2 in this thread. You can simply debunk OP if you think those proposals make no sense.

As for new, different proposals, they should go in a new, different thread.

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