WE/WH Elixirs Cooldowns

[Aurandilaz]

Issue:
WE and WH both have Elixirs (let this cover also Shroud of Magnus, Seal of Destruction and Von Horstmanns Speculum to make it simpler). (Elixir of Insane Power, of Cauldron, of Blades); they are potent, but are quite limited in their use due to a 60 second cooldown. One could consider them to be part of their career mechanic almost, as whatever way you spend your mastery point, you are most likely to pick one or two Elixirs to aid you.
Their potency is limited by somewhat short effect duration, 7 seconds, and then waiting 53 seconds before you can choose any of them for use again. Which effectively means that WE/WH maximum potential is achieved every 60 seconds.

However the Stealth mechanic is at hand every 30 seconds, which is another core mechanic of the classes. Even if you manage to pull a withdrawal from combat, enter stealth, and then re-engage again, you will lack the Elixirs which will be on CD most likely, assuming that you used them during initial Stealth-Opener engage phase like most of us usually do to achieve peak efficiency with initial engagement phase.


Suggestion:
Decrease Elixir cooldowns down to 30 seconds. This allows WE/WH to perform effectively with a 30 second cycle, instead of previous 60 sec cycle. This would then work in tandem with the 30 sec CD Stealth mechanic, allowing 2 max efficiency performances per minute of combat fought instead of one peak performance per minute.

They require you to spend mastery points, and only one of them can be used at a time. Yes, other classes have various potent buffs that are available at 60 sec cooldowns, but few of them require similar investment into mastery trees.

The end result would be that the WE/WH rotations of peak efficiency changes from 60 sec to 30 sec, which would go hand in hand with the other career mechanic, Stealth.



Would this change balance massively?

Hard to believe. WE/WH are far from being the most in demand dps classes, and mostly excel at playing alone. This would possibly increase their demand for party gameplay, since they no longer would need to wait 60 seconds to reach maximal efficiency rotation, but could do it every 30 second instead.
This would result in the classes becoming closer to the performance levels of WL/Mara, which can hardly be a bad thing from the perspective of class balance.
Furthermore, most "fights" (or ganks) that WE/WH experience last longer than 5-15 seconds at best. This is normally then followed by waiting a bit until stealth becomes available again, and then waiting even more until the Elixirs can be used again.
And, not all Elixirs are offensively used, some of them are used for defensive purposes (especially Disrupt elixir), with rdps meta still quite strong, allowing a light armoured class more survival potential against rdps should make melee slightly less risky in general, and make it in generally less easier for rdps to melt WE/WH from distance. From my Sorc POV, I can honestly say that most WHs hardly pose a threat, either because they skip the anti-disrupt Shroud of Magnus, or 7/60 sec coverage is not enough to keep them alive against proper rdps focus.

[Penril]

Moving to Discussions.

I disagree with this proposal. SoM and EoC (100% disrupt for 7 secs) every 30 seconds might be too much, specially with so much disrupt running around. SoD and EoIP should be fine though; no problem there.

As for VHS and EoB, they would still suck even with a 10s CD. I'd rather see those changed into something else.

[Krima]

Moving to Discussions.

I disagree with this proposal. SoM and EoC (100% disrupt for 7 secs) every 30 seconds might be too much, specially with so much disrupt running around. SoD and EoIP should be fine though; no problem there.

As for VHS and EoB, they would still suck even with a 10s CD. I'd rather see those changed into something else.

Remove both and add
Elixir of Maddened Speed: Increase your movement speed by 50% for 7 secs.
to compensate dots breaking stealth.. Ive been playing 6v6 and havent use stealth once during fights..only at the very start.

[Spierron]

From my Sorc POV, I can honestly say that most WHs hardly pose a threat, either because they skip the anti-disrupt Shroud of Magnus, or 7/60 sec coverage is not enough to keep them alive against proper rdps focus.

They don't have access 100% disrupt, WH in group play Inquisition-Judgment and Shroud of Magnus>path of Confession

I agree with Penril, 30s is really OP for elixirs disrupt.

As for VHS and EoB, they would still suck even with a 10s CD. I'd rather see those changed into something else.

buff 50-100% Parry strikethrough for 7s ? a lot of players play with riposte and we don't have snare to counter this. Riposte hit 350-500, unlucky you kill you

NPNB kyranria WE

[Aurandilaz]

I'll concede that 100% Disrupt is quite potent. However, from WE point of view, the main cause for you to use Disrupt Elixir is the BW, who already has BurnThrough which allows it to bypass the Elixir effect. (and WHs becoming better at hunting witchcraft abusing Sorc and Magus, maybe they actually become a credible threat?)
The Elixir of Blades would remain in state of "meh" regardless, agreed with that.

However EoIP would help WE/WH really get closer towards the potency of the other mdps classes when it comes to securing spots in a meleetrain on equal grounds.
And, players most likely would not spam Disrupt elixir off the CD, since most of time some other Elixir is used for offensive gameplay reasons.

Also lets face it, despite nerfs to rdps with defensive mechanic changes and DoT defending, the game still has vast numbers of rdps players simply because how easy it remains to shoot targets from distance to death before they can attack you back.


As for EoB/VHS, that would require lot of rethinking to bring it to equally good level compared to the other 2 elixirs, I don't mind discussing it here, but the main idea behind my proposal is to readjust WE/WH damage cycle from 1min to 30 sec when it comes to peak efficiency, hopefully bringing them closer to the other mdps when it comes to forming "fotm meta" parties. (WE/WH in light armor being high risk high reward pick, but still being lacking a bit behind due to long 60 sec CD on very much needed abilities to ensure they perform well)

[Miszczu5647]

Moving to Discussions.

I disagree with this proposal. SoM and EoC (100% disrupt for 7 secs) every 30 seconds might be too much, specially with so much disrupt running around. SoD and EoIP should be fine though; no problem there.

As for VHS and EoB, they would still suck even with a 10s CD. I'd rather see those changed into something else.

Remove both and add
Elixir of Maddened Speed: Increase your movement speed by 50% for 7 secs.
to compensate dots breaking stealth.. Ive been playing 6v6 and havent use stealth once during fights..only at the very start.

As much as I would love to see this (this is pre 1.2 stuff, right?) I have to point that WE have a way to increase speed (by tactic). And as all mdps have two gap closers (flee+ap pots, stealth vs flee+ap pots, charge).

Back to the OP:
Disrupt elixir on 30s cooldown is to strong. Already it create 10 sec.(kd+elixir) window when magic user can't hurt you (with one exception).

Armor ignore elixir - 30 sec cooldown is ok.

Damaging elixir - I currently use it. Oh man... it is better to put a one extra point it path than buy this skill. Definitely should be changed. Parry strike through looks interesting.

[Tesq]

i dont agree regarding give any 100% avoidance more than once every min, this is a moral thing, it's acceptbale imo that is granted as skill but not once every 30 sec , i mean considering target swap and focus it's basically 20 sec out of threat on 30 sec that way, seems ppl forgot guard exist. Even increase to a staple 10 sec the duration feel too much, maybe it could be lowered a bit to 50 sec rather than 30 so that you have 40 sec of true CD rather than 20 sec of true CD as lower the to 30 sec should be used more frequently that way with out be usable most of times.
Also for WE as it stand now is a granted spot in any small scale preamde it dosen't have problem get a spot.

Armor ignore feel more in line every 30 sec because that way the type of play behind it is more reliable, something those skills always lacked so a CD decrease is ok tough personally we/wh atm don't need an increase in burst; if that sort of buff happens then a rebalance should happen and not just a bland buff. If you want to fix "how" kinda the class suppose to be play is a thing which require a rebalance then im ok with it if you want a bland buff i disagree.

[chakzo]

From my point of view is problematic the sharared cooldown between all elixirs those can be tweaked a bit if any relevant options are at the table. Like keep 1 min CD for one elixir but make 2nd one usable after 30 s or something for more options in fights.

Spoiler:

To other topic Dots breaking stealth keeping you from resteathing in the middle of a fight. Same with dismounting. Current situation is way too much and not fun at all.

Not discussing that.

[Hastykrasty]

One could consider them to be part of their career mechanic almost, as whatever way you spend your mastery point, you are most likely to pick one or two Elixirs to aid you.

If you look at the class description for both, you will see that it's mentioned that they use elixirs/relics to increase their efficency... so they were designed at the beginning to be a fundamental part of the class' mechanic.
I totally agree with OP proposal, although 30s CD for 100% disrupt are few (I have to remember you all that the duration of the buff is 7s, not 10, just for clarification), relics/elixirs need their cooldowns to be reduced (not necessarily by the same amount).

Another topic is Van Horsmann and WE's counterpart: it's garbage let's face it.
Possible suggestions (pick one and/or more, just brainstorming):
-Removing the melee condition (so it triggers for every attack landed on you).
-Make it trigger even on dots (haven't checked with the recent changes, someone could shed light on this)
-Make it undefendable.
-Make it trigger also on succesful defence.
-(Obviously) Reduce its cooldown.
-Increase its duration.

I believe that with the appropiate mix we can come to a decent ability.

[Tankbeardz]

Moving to Discussions.

I disagree with this proposal. SoM and EoC (100% disrupt for 7 secs) every 30 seconds might be too much, specially with so much disrupt running around. SoD and EoIP should be fine though; no problem there.

As for VHS and EoB, they would still suck even with a 10s CD. I'd rather see those changed into something else.

Remove both and add
Elixir of Maddened Speed: Increase your movement speed by 50% for 7 secs.
to compensate dots breaking stealth.. Ive been playing 6v6 and havent use stealth once during fights..only at the very start.

As much as I would love to see this (this is pre 1.2 stuff, right?) I have to point that WE have a way to increase speed (by tactic). And as all mdps have two gap closers (flee+ap pots, stealth vs flee+ap pots, charge).

Back to the OP:
Disrupt elixir on 30s cooldown is to strong. Already it create 10 sec.(kd+elixir) window when magic user can't hurt you (with one exception).

Armor ignore elixir - 30 sec cooldown is ok.

Damaging elixir - I currently use it. Oh man... it is better to put a one extra point it path than buy this skill. Definitely should be changed. Parry strike through looks interesting.

Agree that 30 seconds is too OP.
Disagree that all melee have 2 viable gap closers...

WH only has:
Flee + AP pot - Meh but it does get used.
Stealth - You can't consider stealth a gap closer since you need it to open and it does nothing for you if something is kiting away.
Ranged snare - This is super meh.