[Black Orc] You Got Nuffin'

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

I personaly believe that although buffing the healing component is cool it misses the point of group play as has been stated before. The issue that I find with my BO is in the area of 2h . Giving this a parry buff and linking it to 2h would make it useful.
The thought of the anti detaunt would be great but think this would end up as a must slot tactic.
I believe that any change should expand possibilities and play style and enabling 2h BO seems along tho use thins.

Cool, make your own proposal for a 2H buff. In this thread, discuss OP's proposal.

[Nefarian78]

Spoiler:

Increasing the duration or the healing is not going to solve anything. Tactics like Less stabbin' Me would still be better in terms of survivability gain, Same for Big Choppin'.

Footpatrol detaunt-dispell idea is better, but imo it's not that good either. I suppose the suggestion is aimed for 2h builds, and with that in mind, i think it's not worth slotting it instead of tactics like Loudmouth/Guud at Big Choppin/Stab You Gooder/Gork Smash. Additionally, BOs aren't the n1 detaunt target anyway, and having an entire tactic to deal with detaunts on a class that isn't high on the detaunt-list doesn't sound that good to me.

The tactic is in the boss tree, so it should continue being about supporting your group mainly.

My proposal: Each time you take any damage you have X% chance of dispelling 1 harmful effect from you and your teammates within 75feets of you. Can only proc once every X seconds.

Pros:
It has counterplay.
Enemies need to chose what to do about you. They attack you, you're going to dispel a lot of stuff. They don't and you have much freedom to do what you need to.
Works for both Scs and RvR

Cons:
Can be really op if tuned wrong
Easy to counter
Not worth slotting in a SnB tank build.

Same as above.

[Collateral]

Spoiler:

You wanna give aoe cleanse to a tank, if I understood you? Also, no one would have to attack you specifically, guard damage would proc that as well afaik, which would make it op. If it doesn't tho, tactic would be useless in small scale. In rvr it would be very powerful. I don't see how that would be easy to counter either. Rvr is pretty much about spamming aoe, which means a lot of damage is coming your way. That would make it quite potent in rvr, especially in snb builds.

As for detaunt, I disagree that bos are not a worthy detaunt target. They can put out a world of hurt if speced offensively, be it snb or 2h. Smart dps players would actually have perma detaunt on offensive tanks. That's also why I think anti detaunt is a bad idea. It would be a must have in small scale imo. Coupled with taunt proc from dominator bonus or 2h epic weapon it would be seriously strong. Maybe not meta, but definitely for pug farming. I can already see the whining.

Stop discussing Detaunt or other alternatives. Discuss OP's proposal or don't post at all. I will be giving out warnings/BDF bans from now on.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

I doubt anti Detaunt would be OP.
BG has the same feature in bottom right tree.
Even there it's not an autopickup.
If it's bound to 2hd only on Bo I also think it's Allright because 2hd BO is already making huge tradeoffs in terms for survivability for dps.
BG also has outgoing healdebuff and is defacto the only 2hd tank which can put pressure on a healer.

While BGs damage is more constant BOs is more spike, but still, survivability tradeoff.

The question is: does bo need it (maybe/not sure) and is you got nuffin the right spot (T1 again, overwriting the heal tactic which is sometimes a reasonable pick up) to implement it (I don't think so).

If we talk 2hd, there is definitely incentive needed to make you want to play it, because right now, you just trade off much EHP for a bit better burst window. There are not much reasons to play 2hd from an efficiency pov. There is also nothing which makes the specc unique like punt CDs on other tanks.
On average you will do better with an offensive snb specc to fulfill the same role in grp play. Just because you have a safety net with m2 block and can eat a lot more dmg while having a decent amount of dps.

Putting autodispell, even with icd, on a tactic is nowhere in line with the rest of the game.
Self dispell was before the changes a 30 RR skill (CW) and you find it on a item with 30 minute cooldown (Subjugator cloak).

As mentioned it has no counter play and it's current Form is triggered by guard.

Besides that all it would be the best backpedal tool in the game and would put BG even in a harder place than it's already is in terms of warband setups (rvr wb gameplay).

6 man kite groups would also profit from this with a huge amount, even if it's on a 20 sec icd.

Same as above.

[Tesq]

the other tactic of the boss mastery work around buff a single skill of the mastery, so taking in account each problem

-2h surviving problem
-OP solution "2b"
-make something not buffing s+b

tactic will make "da big un" reduces enemy critical DMG by 25%

-it work only 2h
-is different from CS but same logic help team while also help your survability vs multiple enemy
-the value got bumped from 10% because face it a 10% crit DMG (not chance to crit) reduction is not optimal especially when WL,WH both have a 50% critical dmg increase and slayer have a 0-100% one....
-being aoe 2h mean give something to 2h user in rvr where there is zero point bring a 2h BO
-da big un is a level 8 skill which mean it will have associate a low level tactic aswell; is also a 2h utility when you enter in t2 atm cuz requrie rank 17 to spec so is good for starters and give option between s+b + hold the line or 2h +crit dmg reduction

[Nefarian78]

Spoiler:

You wanna give aoe cleanse to a tank, if I understood you? Also, no one would have to attack you specifically, guard damage would proc that as well afaik, which would make it op. If it doesn't tho, tactic would be useless in small scale. In rvr it would be very powerful. I don't see how that would be easy to counter either. Rvr is pretty much about spamming aoe, which means a lot of damage is coming your way. That would make it quite potent in rvr, especially in snb builds.

As for detaunt, I disagree that bos are not a worthy detaunt target. They can put out a world of hurt if speced offensively, be it snb or 2h. Smart dps players would actually have perma detaunt on offensive tanks. That's also why I think anti detaunt is a bad idea. It would be a must have in small scale imo. Coupled with taunt proc from dominator bonus or 2h epic weapon it would be seriously strong. Maybe not meta, but definitely for pug farming. I can already see the whining.

By any damage i meant DoT, direct hits and AoE damage, not guard damage as that would make it stupid op. I disagree that the tactic would be useless in small scale pvp for the reasons i mentioned where i suggested this. In RvR, yes, it's harder to counter but most of the damage from RvR comes from instant AoE and morale bombs, dispelling stuff, while it's certainly useful isn't going to enough to save yourself from a morale dump, which is the most common way of killing and being killed in large fights.

Your argument of 2h BOs "putting out a world of hurt" is not valid, for me at least. Why are you bringing a 2h BO to your group for damage, when you can take ANY dps and deal double the damage? If you really wanted a BO kit in your party you bring a SnB specced one, and even with an offensive build it would be a wasted detaunt on him. The anti-detaunt wouldn't be as strong as you think. Could be a good alternative to the usual 4-5 tactics BO have 99% of the time tho.

Putting autodispell, even with icd, on a tactic is nowhere in line with the rest of the game.
Self dispell was before the changes a 30 RR skill (CW) and you find it on a item with 30 minute cooldown (Subjugator cloak).

As mentioned it has no counter play and it's current Form is triggered by guard.

Besides that all it would be the best backpedal tool in the game and would put BG even in a harder place than it's already is in terms of warband setups (rvr wb gameplay).

6 man kite groups would also profit from this with a huge amount, even if it's on a 20 sec icd.

I don't see where it's not "in line with the rest of the game" There's an absurd amount of cluttering debuffs in the game, like SM's Heaven's Blade. Dispelling a debuff every once in a while (with ICD) means you could dispell 12 times in a row one of the Heaven's Blade debuffs or something you actually need. It's not like the dispell is going to target the most dangerous debuff you have on you each time. As mentioned above, my idea is to not make it trigger by guard, ofc. Thought it was obvious.

As for being a great backpedal tool, i don't see the problem and it wouldn't be as strong as you initially thought. You can backpedal all you want but neither you or the enemies are going to do anything. Shoot 3 arrows at me and i shoot 3 back at you. Nothing is going to happen if you keep chasing one another, running for 3 hrs straight around the map. Could be good for kiting pugs into the water and trigger them i guess?

I agree that it would put BG even further down the ladder, but tbh i think it's futile effort trying to balance classes around WB, and especially classes like BG. The class is simply not meant for WB play, it needs an entire overhaul to work. As it stands there's no point in trying to balance BGs for RvR.

Same as above.

[Collateral]

Spoiler:

Dps dealing double the damage of 2h dps bo? You must be doing something wrong if that's what you experienced. In snb spec I can deal more damage than your average dps player, in lol dps 2h spec, dealing damage is no problem if you have support from your team. Hence why it's really not a waste to keep the bo detaunted if possible.

You don't seem to know how cookie cutter 6man builds work. You always have 2 dps, one defensive tank and one offensive. Bo almost always plays that offensive role cuz of his high tooltip damage and being able to stack a lot of crit, coupled with loudmouth. I guess you could argue that people don't really detaunt tanks often, especially when things get hectic. Which would be a reason NOT to take the tactic, as it would be a waste if you can take another dps tactic to deal even more damage.

If we go by what you yourself said (that bo damage sucks compared to any other dps), why even bother with anti detaunt tactic when you can bring another dps to your group? The logic is flawed. You either have pretty high damage on bo (which you do), and people should be detaunting you, which is why you would maybe take anti detaunt (which would be quite strong imo, if people actually keep detaunting you); or, you have weak damage (like you said), and taking anti detaunt is moot cuz there's no reason to detaunt you in the first place, since your damage is apparently crap. In any case, I wouldn't bother to take the tactic if it was anti detaunt. It's only maybe useful in small scale, but mostly when you play scs you don't encounter hardcore groups but pugs anyway, which don't know about detaunt, or don't bother. Would probably be very useful for melting healers and squishy casters, but if you have a proper group, they will melt in seconds anyway.


To your idea. What reasons did you mention for small scale? That the enemy won't target you unless they don't want free cleanses for your party? If they are smart, they won't hit you in the first place. I just argue that the tactic has no place in small scale for that reason. No one will hit you most of the time, especially when they realize you're tank spec. It would be an even bigger waste of a tactic slot if guard damage doesn't proc it. In rvr, yes there is a lot of morale damage, but you must've never fought the zerg. There's tons of ap damage flying around all the time from all the bw and sw spam on order.

All in all tho idk how I really feel about your idea. Would be useful in rvr I guess, but useless in small scale. That's how I see it at least.

Same as above.

[predathore]

Spoiler:

Increasing the duration or the healing is not going to solve anything. Tactics like Less stabbin' Me would still be better in terms of survivability gain, Same for Big Choppin'.

Less stabbin' me would only be better in larger scale battles, in small scale the potential healing could be about 250-300 per 3 seconds to your whole group. Also nothing stops you from taking both tactics.
PS.: I like the dispell idea

Same as above.

[joaolol]

Spoiler:

Your argument of 2h BOs "putting out a world of hurt" is not valid, for me at least. Why are you bringing a 2h BO to your group for damage, when you can take ANY dps and deal double the damage? If you really wanted a BO kit in your party you bring a SnB specced one, and even with an offensive build it would be a wasted detaunt on him. The anti-detaunt wouldn't be as strong as you think. Could be a good alternative to the usual 4-5 tactics BO have 99% of the time tho.

well ive been a "tryhard" 2h BO for a while (all pug, organized sc, pug rvr and orvr) and this type of comment doesnt add anything if u expand the discussion to the "archtype linked to everyclass" stuff. i think that more things a class can do, more content the game have (ofc u must choose a spec and every spec should have str and weakness). but your point of view is simple: you are arguing that 2h BO should stay on shadow.

but indeed i agree with you that 'dispeling' may not be the best option. since the discussion around 'big un', to improve 2h BO def capabilities when using the ability, i think that "You Got Nuffin'" should work as crit reduction. as many ppl pointed out, ini on BO is pretty low and order have, on this moment, tons of ini debuff, so it may be a little help. on this topic i dont mean "You Got Nuffin'" should be a obligatory tatic, but a viable one: not op and not very weak as in current state.

Same as above.

[Penril]

I shouldn't have to explain the BDF rules to everyone. Go read them before posting here.