[Review] [KOTBS] Glory Tree

[szejoza]

Blazing blade is ok as DoT applicating skill cause it fits well into glory tree which is supposed to be utility (so you can maintain at least that one dot on enemy while getting that CC and guard swaps done before it runs out).

Let's look at all mastery skills/tactics for a second:
Sunfury - I doubt anyone takes it with rvr in mind, the only place where it could be used is in aoe farming in pve (but still, 50% dmg increasy from 'on being hit' ability with low base damage is meh). Might use a bit of love imo but got no idea in what way
NOC - quite good outgoing healdebuff, nothing wrong with it
Focused mending - as it was already stated, a good passive/passive tactic which doesn't require much investment, might as well put it in place of Mighty Soul
Heaven's Fury - nothing wrong with it, mirror of Chosen skill with the same requirements
Mighty Soul - high requirement ability with crappy effect, Glory tree is supposed to be utility, even if we change the skills to deal elemental damage it won't be a lot stronger (and it works only on Glory tree abilities). It would need some love, either by lowering its requirements by swapping it with Focused mending, or by changing it to affect all KOTBS skills (or both combined, but I guess then all 2h kotbses would be running that)
Unbalancing attack - high requirement and low utility, 40AP is quite low, its enough to rid enemy of one attack for which he will regen AP in 4s with no buffs. It needs some rework imo. Maybe let work in similair manner as Crippling Blow with Slice Through tactic - it would hit 3 targets within 25feet and remove 40 AP on each of them. It would be at least more usefull and not too overpowered (as tons of classes have some sort of reducing APcost or increasing it's regen rate).

I'm not talking about applying all changes here as it would make glory tree more than desirable to spec into, but just throwing some thoughts on abilities here

[Penril]

@Penril. So where are we at now with this discussion. What talking points are going to be brought forward to the mystery balance devs.

As for now? I think FM should be swapped with MS (and keep its value), and both MS/UA should be buffed. I mentioned the possibility of giving an Elemental debuff (strong one, similar to Shaman's) to UA. As for Mighty Soul... no clue.

[Darosh]

@Penril. So where are we at now with this discussion. What talking points are going to be brought forward to the mystery balance devs.

As for now? I think FM should be swapped with MS (and keep its value), and both MS/UA should be buffed. I mentioned the possibility of giving an Elemental debuff (strong one, similar to Shaman's) to UA. As for Mighty Soul... no clue.

Would that debuff stack with other debuffs? Because that could rather quickly get out of hand, regardless the level of stacking.

[Osred]

Could possibly give Unbalancing Attack the same AP debuff as the BGs Choking Fury

@Penril. So where are we at now with this discussion. What talking points are going to be brought forward to the mystery balance devs.

As for now? I think FM should be swapped with MS (and keep its value), and both MS/UA should be buffed. I mentioned the possibility of giving an Elemental debuff (strong one, similar to Shaman's) to UA. As for Mighty Soul... no clue.

Would that debuff stack with other debuffs? Because that could rather quickly get out of hand, regardless the level of stacking.

Well seeing how zealot and magus can currently bring elemental resistances down to zero i see no problem. Tactic + skill should stack. Only reason that SMs Heavens blade was unstackable now because it was a free non-tactic skill stacking with other skills.

@Penril Could possibly give Unbalancing Attack the same AP debuff as the BGs Choking Fury, maintaning its original design as an AP debuff.

[Penril]

Would that debuff stack with other debuffs? Because that could rather quickly get out of hand, regardless the level of stacking.

As far as I know, the only elemental debuffs on Order are from KotBS resist aura (around 120-ish) and SM Heaven's Blade (don't remember the value). These no longer stack with each other.

If UA gets an Ele debuff, it would be of a higher value (similar to Shaman's Scuse Me maybe?). And it wouldn't stack with the ones i mentioned. A good Ele debuff might not seem that much of a big deal for solo KotBS, but it is an indirect buff for BW and DPS RP (yeah... i know but i still have to mention them).

[Darosh]

Would that debuff stack with other debuffs? Because that could rather quickly get out of hand, regardless the level of stacking.

As far as I know, the only elemental debuffs on Order are from KotBS resist aura (around 120-ish) and SM Heaven's Blade (don't remember the value). These no longer stack with each other.

If UA gets an Ele debuff, it would be of a higher value (similar to Shaman's Scuse Me maybe?). And it wouldn't stack with the ones i mentioned. A good Ele debuff might not seem that much of a big deal for solo KotBS, but it is an indirect buff for BW and DPS RP (yeah... i know but i still have to mention them).

-snip-

Missread an important piece of your response, my bad. All good, go ahead.

[Tesq]

just pointing out debuff mean -> synergy with other stuff, a ele resistence bypass would be better unless it need to move fowards the synergy direction at all cost

the reason is basically why now sm STACKINF DEBUBUFF was nerfed which is basically the same motivation of what was said in SM/BO stacking stuf thread long ago.

[Specialpatrol]

Before you start rearranging tactics, I think it's worth considering that the KotBS is a utility tank first and foremost. Moving FM so high up in the glory tree severely limits the utility aspect of the class for anyone below RR60/70.

From that point of view, it makes very good sense that FM is placed where it is - in comparison to MS, which is a more egoistic/special-build/damage-oriented tactic.

Furthermore, MS tactic is so useless that the buff to it would need to be significant for it to be desirable - which possibly should be a whole balance suggestion in itself, irregardless of the outcome of this thread. As has been mentioned, it would possibly require that it effected all dmg abilites. At the very least, a rework of the stacking effect of Blazing Blade needs to be looked at (currently the DoT first starts ticking after 3s and gets reset whenever you use the ability - which either nulifies it or severely limits the use of the only spammable attack in the Glory tree).

Making UA debuff elemental resists, but not having it stack with the Knight's own aura (that's how I understood Penril's comment further up) also seems lackluster. It would have to be a significant debuff to make it worthwhile. When specced up to UA the resist aura already debuffs for approx 180. Also, if this means removing the AP drain of the ability, then I 'd personally vote against it.

As I'm seeing it, the KotBS is in the process of getting nerfed on it's utility - which is it's core function - while still getting outshined by SM/IB in the more damage-dealing department. Changing/buffing MS/UA will help - but it will still be counter to the class' original design and make it a more offensive tank.

I should maybe also add that I don't find MS overperforming, nor a tide-turner, in comparison to other tank abilities and their respective point-placements (as exemplified by Volgograd previously) - and as such I don't find the need to change anything regarding it.

[Penril]

I debunked 2 out of 3 of his examples and they should not be mentioned again according to the BDF rules.

[Penril]

Time to lock.