[Review] [Mara] Gift of monstrosity

[RuffRyder]

Also isnt armor pen immunity only when monstro arm procs the heal?

As per tooltip: "While mutated, your attacks have a 25% chance to empower you for 5 seconds, gradually restoring 1032 health and letting you shrug off your enemy's armor penetration."

There have been no changes regarding to the wiki, so if within 5 seconds you successfully hit 4 times that can lead to almost 100% uptime.
Question is: Does it proc on cast, on successful hit and how is AoE calculated? (Can't test it until this evening)

[peterthepan3]

Friendly reminder to keep posts and discussions relevant to OP, i.e. no tangents.

[Scrilian]

I have to say I rarely agree with Tesq but his solution is quite good.

For too long maras have abused the most broken, OP monstro mutation, that makes them godlike smallscale as well as countering most of orders physical dps on in almost passive and nearly 100% uptime way by just switching mutation, that doesn't even require speccing into.

"Dumbing down" my ass, boo-hoo. I think its only fair to get the "OP Guardian WL treatment" here, aka make it 10% anti-pen with 1% additional per mastery in Monstro, same thing with healing component.
It has been beyond too good, like hugely unbalanced even on Mythics scale, ever since stances rework and, having played around on my Mara on live and here, I'm safe to say that it should be finally brought down from its undoubtedly ridiculous values.

[Melekith]

PROBLEMS (summary):

A-way too good def tool on a dps
B-actually double component (double the opness/skill economy/skill acccess economy)
C-no skill involved and basically critical choice compared to the other 2 "gifts of mutation" / aza nerf to chance to proc didnt solve the problem (idk if the chance proc reduction is Still in effect but seems so).
D-no or only one counter

Hi Tesq,
I play a marauder 40/69 myself. I want to share my experiences with you, regarding your analysis. I play my marauder with 4 dom 2 conq and full genesis off set.

A- Regarding PVE: First of all Warhammer Online is a game with focus on PvP/RvR so the balance should be focussing on this and not PvE. Second: When you switch to monstro stance you loose dps, you're not unkillable, and it is simply not true you negate the damage of for example a slayer completely. When you are focused and use everytime GoM you will not kill for example a slayer in GoM stance. Trust me, AoE slayer wielding around axes can put a very high pressure on you and your group. Regardless of RvR or Scenarios: In small scale fights a marauder who skilled monstro is in my opinion not very useful, the only viable way is savagery/brutality. Third: GoM is only useful against physical damage, BW, WH, even dots of a SW will hurt still. Of course the marauder is not easy to kill, but he is only a good melee class because of his armor type and his survivability. Trust me, every slayer, choppa, witch hunter and witch elf will out burst a marauder. The marauder is doing his damage in the long run.

B- I often go butchering with my mara (specced with sav/brut), of course I can tank some mobs in GoM, but I have to switch tactics to riposte and absorb bubble otherwise I will die. I think the marauder is as effective as farm char as for example a KotBS or a Chosen. Btw tanks that use life reg items and skilled full def are way more annoying and more hard to kill than a marauder that switches to GoM when he is at 25% health.

C- FIrst: Since when skill or critical choice is a core element of Warhammer Online? This is a tab based game you don't have a cross hair and have to aim. Second: The marauder is designed as a stance switching class. If you don't skill in the tree that does imply the tree must completely rubbish.

D- I played GoM on live server in Altdorf for example. It is viable when you spec it. But it is not viable when every mara in the warband is GoM specced. Because all you do is AoE that every warrior priest heals with a smile on his face. The only utility in the GoM tree is morale remove, the AoE knockdown and build up increase tactic.

I don't think GoM was intended as a "o ****" button, but is not as useful as you think. Of course (and I think every marauder use it this way) I try to use GoM when I am the main target of a melee group, but it is not as reliable as you think. I rely more on dominator set, heal/absorb pots, charge and so on. In relation to other melee dps for example slayer, marauders are not a burst class. They are a debuff-melee class in my opinion. Therefore they have to have tools like GoM, otherwise they can't support their group and fulfil their role as melee dps.

And last but not least: If you think GoM is too op, we should talk about shadow warriors melee stance. Isn't it the same? You don't have to skill the melee tree, but you get many goodies, just switching the stance ... I played a shadow warrior and it was exactly the same "o ****" reaction. I switched to melee stance when I was in focus by melees.

Shadow warriors and marauders are designed to switch stances, even when they are not skilling the tree they are switching in, the tree has to be useful in away.

I would recommend not to look at classes inidividually and pick specific advantages or misadvantages. It is better to look on both sides and to put it in relation to each other.

[GodlessCrom]

I think Monstro is fine. You have to be attacking to proc it, so no detaunts, it does less single-target dps than a 2h IB because it has precisely three attacks worth using while transformed (since Thunderous Blow was moved to top of Sav) and it only helps if, as Nork pointed out, you wear defensive gear specifically talismanned for armor, as otherwise armor debuffs wipe out 50-75% of your armor anyways, leaving you at sub-clothie levels of armor anyways.

Its literally the definition of a well-designed skill: there is a trade off (survivability and aoe damage versus single target burst and massive debuffs) and you cant just use it mindlessly without gimping yourself.

I dont see any justification for nerfing it, since it does exactly what it is designed to do: provide a survivability buff at the cost of doing any single target damage ever.

Who cares about 1v1? Do we nerf repel blasphemy, or Aegis of Orange Fire, or Grumble n Mutter, or Riposte? All abilities that do really well for 1v1 and solo queueing/roaming, but are outshone by other abilities in a different context. Monstro is good for 1v1, and for warband aoeing. Which is what its meant to be used for, and so whats the actual issue? We dont balance around 1v1, and destro has precisely the one melee class thats good for warbands (just as Order does, with Slayer).

[Tesq]

PROBLEMS (summary):

A-way too good def tool on a dps
B-actually double component (double the opness/skill economy/skill acccess economy)
C-no skill involved and basically critical choice compared to the other 2 "gifts of mutation" / aza nerf to chance to proc didnt solve the problem (idk if the chance proc reduction is Still in effect but seems so).
D-no or only one counter

Hi Tesq,
I play a marauder 40/69 myself. I want to share my experiences with you, regarding your analysis. I play my marauder with 4 dom 2 conq and full genesis off set.

A- Regarding PVE: First of all Warhammer Online is a game with focus on PvP/RvR so the balance should be focussing on this and not PvE. Second: When you switch to monstro stance you loose dps, you're not unkillable, and it is simply not true you negate the damage of for example a slayer completely. When you are focused and use everytime GoM you will not kill for example a slayer in GoM stance. Trust me, AoE slayer wielding around axes can put a very high pressure on you and your group. Regardless of RvR or Scenarios: In small scale fights a marauder who skilled monstro is in my opinion not very useful, the only viable way is savagery/brutality. Third: GoM is only useful against physical damage, BW, WH, even dots of a SW will hurt still. Of course the marauder is not easy to kill, but he is only a good melee class because of his armor type and his survivability. Trust me, every slayer, choppa, witch hunter and witch elf will out burst a marauder. The marauder is doing his damage in the long run.

the pve exemple was an exemple to measure how broken a armor pen reduction can be vs something and a mdps it's cleary in this game not designed to be able to tank + 1 pocket healers heros...then for the again redundant talk about mostro loosing dps

MOSTRO = AOE
sav/brut = st

debunk this first talk about loose dmg later; as it stand right now mara aoe > chopp, The rest was alredy explained


B- I often go butchering with my mara (specced with sav/brut), of course I can tank some mobs in GoM, but I have to switch tactics to riposte and absorb bubble otherwise I will die. I think the marauder is as effective as farm char as for example a KotBS or a Chosen. Btw tanks that use life reg items and skilled full def are way more annoying and more hard to kill than a marauder that switches to GoM when he is at 25% health.

i have chosen, choppa, marauder, BG etc, the mara is by far the best farmer in game with engi it will kill champions 1vs 1 more faster and deal with blobs a lot faster.

C- FIrst: Since when skill or critical choice is a core element of Warhammer Online? This is a tab based game you don't have a cross hair and have to aim. Second: The marauder is designed as a stance switching class. If you don't skill in the tree that does imply the tree must completely rubbish.

to the first question i think the balance forum rules state something around try to balance the game aroudn skill or is common sense but anyway about the second question yes, as you said if you dont spec into a mastery you should not be able to get a 100% armor pen ty for agree

D- I played GoM on live server in Altdorf for example. It is viable when you spec it. But it is not viable when every mara in the warband is GoM specced. Because all you do is AoE that every warrior priest heals with a smile on his face. The only utility in the GoM tree is morale remove, the AoE knockdown and build up increase tactic.


this is not live server and thigs are different

I don't think GoM was intended as a "o ****" button, but is not as useful as you think. Of course (and I think every marauder use it this way) I try to use GoM when I am the main target of a melee group, but it is not as reliable as you think. I rely more on dominator set, heal/absorb pots, charge and so on. In relation to other melee dps for example slayer, marauders are not a burst class. They are a debuff-melee class in my opinion. Therefore they have to have tools like GoM, otherwise they can't support their group and fulfil their role as melee dps.

it is a dmg denier for me as i stated multiple time for some classes which make em lacklsuter in rvr, partially slayer( GoM and rampage would require a balance thread on their own because their opness coutner each other but i am trying keep things simple her ...) and definetly engi/sw/wl dmg wise. Mara have way to do burst just the rotation is longer, but the statement which it cant do burst are false also that would be brut/sav what does that have to do with mostro? and not spec which is aoe , just the proc...


And last but not least: If you think GoM is too op, we should talk about shadow warriors melee stance. Isn't it the same? You don't have to skill the melee tree, but you get many goodies, just switching the stance ... I played a shadow warrior and it was exactly the same "o ****" reaction. I switched to melee stance when I was in focus by melees.

this is totally different the base bonus from swap stance (because we are talking for stance not the rest of mastery skills) is double the armor which is gear dependant /spec dependant and wont even reach the same values a mara can do since A) mara is medium armore for base, B) with talismans it can get even better, C) with an immunity to all physic dmg out there the mara can move more frelly and put easily pressure and in number game in orvr this get profitable pretty fast(which is different from zerg, the buff just escalate better and better with higher number around ).

Shadow warriors and marauders are designed to switch stances, even when they are not skilling the tree they are switching in, the tree has to be useful in away.

Yes, and why even if the gameplay force em to stance dance 1 skill must be so good to totally nullify physical dmg penetration? the fact that they have to stance dance does not imply that all the juggle must be op as default.

I would recommend not to look at classes inidividually and pick specific advantages or misadvantages. It is better to look on both sides and to put it in relation to each other.

i do look at all classes i have a pretty good bunch of em that is exatly why mara in orvr basically nullify 3-4 order classes should go, 1) because otherwise is all bw spam and repeat, 2) because with more physical dps around the nerfed effect will still be moro usefull than always being hit by only magical casters 3) it also make balance easier since by bring avarage mdps survability more in line it will be easier get the balance right.

as final remark ppl here are not talking things right, mara other than his own buff in rvr can benefith from chosen + bo buff which mean -40% magic dmg on top on his OWN resistences, in orvr a mara if played right is pretty much one of those last targets that will ever die under a guard and ppl dont bring aoe mara just because it's a meatshield sy.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

You debunked youself when you called for no guard, why it should be able with no point invested to be able to survive without guard to a melee train?

5 piece BL, 4 piece Conq, zero armor talismans
2869 armor = 65.2% Physical Damage reduction
After White lion Force Opportunity (-1400 armor)*
1469 armor = 33.4% Physical Damage reduction
Then when hit with a Demolishing strike
413 armor = 9.3% Physical Damage Reduction

Offensive build in a group with GoM Procced:
Guard kick, armor debuff: dying.
Guard kick, Double armor debuff: dead.

Offensive build in a group with GoM nerfed to 10% reduction:
Guard kick, armor debuff, dead
Guard kick, double armor debuff: deleted.

All things considered, a marauder who's actually doing damage and capable of killing people is going to be at 33% damage reduction with the application of an armor debuff unless you (gasp) coordinate an m1 armor debuff and then he's at 9%. He can then give up any and all outgoing pressure to try to survive his focus. This is the dynamic tradeoff. He can't dump rage. He can't self punt. He can't pounce away. He can't on-demand KD. He has to eat the damage and die- or swap to monstro, pick the softest-hitting target (which is going to be a tank who has high parry/block) which is focusing him so as not to break detaunt on the slayer/WH/WL and tap flail until it procs (GoM procs on successful hit, AOE included.)

Where GoM is obnoxious and caters to the low skilled player is while playing a low skill ceiling, one-trick-pony spec, which is "we a walking aura nao!" warband morale/AP drainer, which is only ran by "everyone stand in one spot and press aoe button, morale 1 2 3 Go!" groups, which I'd be all in for having crushing blows reduced to a 10% chance to remove morale, or the amount of morale removed be reduce from 225 to 110, so as to discourage marauders from trying to be a chosens 4th, forgotten aura.

While a scaling Armor Pen reduction percentage by investment into monstro sounds great while reading it on paper, the non 1v1, non warband mara becomes paper-thin, unable to dynamically alter their battlefield momentum, which lowers the skill ceiling considerably.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

You debunked youself when you called for no guard, why it should be able with no point invested to be able to survive without guard to a melee train?

5 piece BL, 4 piece Conq, zero armor talismans
2869 armor = 65.2% Physical Damage reduction
After White lion Force Opportunity (-1400 armor)*
1469 armor = 33.4% Physical Damage reduction
Then when hit with a Demolishing strike
413 armor = 9.3% Physical Damage Reduction

Offensive build in a group with GoM Procced:
Guard kick, armor debuff: dying.
Guard kick, Double armor debuff: dead.

Offensive build in a group with GoM nerfed to 10% reduction:
Guard kick, armor debuff, dead
Guard kick, double armor debuff: deleted.

All things considered, a marauder who's actually doing damage and capable of killing people is going to be at 33% damage reduction with the application of an armor debuff unless you (gasp) coordinate an m1 armor debuff and then he's at 9%. He can then give up any and all outgoing pressure to try to survive his focus. This is the dynamic tradeoff. He can't dump rage. He can't self punt. He can't pounce away. He can't on-demand KD. He has to eat the damage and die- or swap to monstro, pick the softest-hitting target (which is going to be a tank who has high parry/block) which is focusing him so as not to break detaunt on the slayer/WH/WL and tap flail until it procs (GoM procs on successful hit, AOE included.)

But can't the argument be reversed depending on your opinion of what "saves you" more? If a Choppa is getting focused, he can't reach 100% armor pen reduction, all he can do is drop rage. You can coordinate Demo and ability armor debuff on any target. Mara isn't special in that regard.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

You're right, marauder even with GoM procced currently will still die to any group with coordination, however he has a better chance now if he's quick and reactive. Reducing armor pen shrug off means the player when focused will just detaunt and... well that's it folks.

Spoiler:

Choppa is currently lackluster in its mechanic and subsequent thoughtless playstyle (chop chop chop drop rage, repeat) and in need of 2h, AOE and defensive re-evaluations to either buff his damage output when in the red (to counter his lack of defensive options (all there is now is rage-dump>detaunt)) and increasing his incoming damage IMHO, or tweak an existing skill like "Come an Git it!" to provide more of a tradeoff to make it not only more useful, but also provide drawbacks- much like marauders currently face when giving up all outgoing damage to swap into monstro.

[theoddone]

I think we need to consider the "whole" situation of a class instead of certain abilities and tactics in a vacuum. Because if you use the "it's a core ability" argument. Then there is a lot of work ahead with some core abilities and tactics that are way too strong.

Then there is Tesq with his "only rvr" setting argument. Should the goal not be to balance as good as possible from 6man setting and up? With Tesq's logic, we need to balance after categories. So we will have "6man rvr", "wb rvr", "6v6 sc", "normal sc" balance. It will be impossible.

Finally, there is the choppa argument. When did choppa become the golden standard for mdps? Why does mara have to be brought down to choppa level and not reverse?

It has been pointed out many times now, on paper GoM is strong, but ingame it is actually fine. I would like to know which marauders are going around terrorizing order and ruining balance with the OP GoM? Maybe I missed the WB with 8 monstro marauders...