Slayer/Choppa Detaunts

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Reesh
Posts: 433

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#11 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:54 pm

If i come to think of it more, making it a 5s duration, 15s cd, and setting the SL/CH at yellow in addition of a detaunt would be a really good one.
It would make you go instantly from red zone whilst not making the class useless for next few seconds. At the same time it couldn't be abused by rising the rage outside of combat, as it would immediately drop.
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dansari
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Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#12 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:22 pm

I personally like 5s uptime 15s cd as well, but not sure about putting you in yellow as opposed to simply dumping full rage. Seems like it would be made too good for no reason.
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Rydiak
Posts: 102

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#13 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:24 pm

Reesh wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:54 pm
If i come to think of it more, making it a 5s duration, 15s cd, and setting the SL/CH at yellow in addition of a detaunt would be a really good one.
It would make you go instantly from red zone whilst not making the class useless for next few seconds. At the same time it couldn't be abused by rising the rage outside of combat, as it would immediately drop.
Now that is a super intriguing idea. Combining a weaker Detaunt with a rage dump would certainly be unique. I like it.
RoR is miles ahead of WAR (live). Thank you, devs!

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MiauMio
Posts: 18

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#14 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:36 pm

One argument for letting SL/CH drop their rage with a detaunt would be that it is easily possible to catch SL/CH in redrage anway if you just range KD them for example or KD right before they hit redrage(which does not allow for any counterplay on the SL/CH side anyway).

So that change would not make the counterplay useless but would -in my opinion, allow for a more active decisionmaking as a SL/CH because -as everyone knows, it takes ages to get all the defensive cooldowns rolling thus often times leaving the SL/CH without anything effective to do. Often times I find myself just checking their backline to see how many physical RDPS they got to measure how effective my confusing moment (evade/parry m1) will be since that is the only button that can realistically save me after I got KDed in redrage for example.

Lowering the CD would allow SL/CH to preemptively pop a detaunt here or there to just lower the incoming damage thus -making them ever so slightly more durable, where as now you can't do that because you need to keep your panic buttons off CD. This is more of a quality of life/small value buff which I feel would be needed in regards to how lackluster the defensive arsenal of SL/CH is, but feels kindat clunky and uninspired to me since handling defensive CDs is what i think SL/CH should be about.

Dropping the rage with it would increase the value as a panicbutton as it ranks really low at the moment by comparison. As mentioned you'd want to pop m1 over detaunt in most situations, also dropping rage over detaunt in most situations (because the death of SL/CH usually lurks in the backline due to their high natural parry). And for some situations you just don't want to drop your rage at all so you can fight back properly as in 1v1s but in that situations you would not detaunt either but drink pots for example or Furious Choppin'+KD.

That leaves me with the conclusions that two very different aspects of the weakness of SL/CH would get buffed.
I'd advocate for ragedrop over CD reduction since I think it is a very intriguing part of playing as SL/CH or even against them to play mindgames around the panicbuttons. This allows for high level plays on both sides to anticipate incoming damage or to bait out long CD panicbuttons. This is currently hampered by how low the detaunt is ranking on the panicbutton-scale (and would probably still be with lower CD since there are more effective panicbuttons in most situations).
That said I feel like it is important to point out again that this kind of mindgame is rather lacking in regards to SL/CH because of how little you can do anyway if you've got no m1 (since it takes at least 2-3 global CDs to get in a more defensive stance) so it would really accentuate this kind of mindgame more than anything.
Everything that encourages engaging mindgames on both sides -I think, is a big improvement to the competative nature of this beautiful game and should therefore be regarded over plain stat/CD buffs.

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Toldavf
Posts: 1555

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#15 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 pm

The detaunt is balanced as it is, while its true it's much worse than other mdps, you get the pay off of having allot more damage then they do.

5 seconds is more than enough reaction time on a guard punt, to either remove yourself or get the tank back in range, with several other defensive skills at your disposal such as an undefendable kd, a 100% crit chance reduction (both of which return your mitigation to "full") and a good old break root and charge away the survival tools are already there to combo with your detaunt.

On an unrealed note these classes pretty much played without detaunt on live as it was a mixed bag on whether it would be defended or not, lucky ror has more competent coders.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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MiauMio
Posts: 18

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#16 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:17 am

Toldavf wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 pm
The detaunt is balanced as it is, while its true it's much worse than other mdps, you get the pay off of having allot more damage then they do.

5 seconds is more than enough ... with several other defensive skills at your disposal ...
Not meaning to offend here but it really does seem like you do not play SL/CH after reading that. Most defensive spells are really not even worth considering if you get any sort of pressure. Sure if you have a tank and heal and a single DPS attacks, you might aswell throw away your rage to reduce his crit chance. Or would you?
Or would you rather do that if a group of MDPS is mauling you? Or when you get some BW aggro?
All of those defensive spells are HIGHLY situational excluding dropping rage and m1 "confusing moments" and most times wont do anything to keep you alive because of the long time it takes to do all of that. Dropping rage, detaunt, sprint is 2.25 seconds of global CDs plus 3 seconds stun ammounts to 5.25 seconds until you are able to effectively disengage. And by effectively I mean walking away slow af or do you want to make it 6 seconds until you can try to disengage by also dropping CC remove?
After 6 seconds mind you the safety is still not in sight since you then need to take cover to break line of sight.
I just really get the impression that those arguments were made at the drawing board.

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Toldavf
Posts: 1555

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#17 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:08 am

MiauMio wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:17 am
Toldavf wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 pm
The detaunt is balanced as it is, while its true it's much worse than other mdps, you get the pay off of having allot more damage then they do.

5 seconds is more than enough ... with several other defensive skills at your disposal ...
Not meaning to offend here but it really does seem like you do not play SL/CH after reading that. Most defensive spells are really not even worth considering if you get any sort of pressure. Sure if you have a tank and heal and a single DPS attacks, you might aswell throw away your rage to reduce his crit chance. Or would you?
Or would you rather do that if a group of MDPS is mauling you? Or when you get some BW aggro?
All of those defensive spells are HIGHLY situational excluding dropping rage and m1 "confusing moments" and most times wont do anything to keep you alive because of the long time it takes to do all of that. Dropping rage, detaunt, sprint is 2.25 seconds of global CDs plus 3 seconds stun ammounts to 5.25 seconds until you are able to effectively disengage. And by effectively I mean walking away slow af or do you want to make it 6 seconds until you can try to disengage by also dropping CC remove?
After 6 seconds mind you the safety is still not in sight since you then need to take cover to break line of sight.
I just really get the impression that those arguments were made at the drawing board.
Played it to 100 on live, messed around with a lowby here amd its pretty much the same.
Most effective way to drop rage under focus? make aditional reductions to the enemy dps where possible removing even a single dps for 3 second.
You realise that both KD and crit debuff are both rage drops right?
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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MiauMio
Posts: 18

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#18 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:46 am

Toldavf wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:08 am
MiauMio wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:17 am
Toldavf wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 pm


Played it to 100 on live, messed around with a lowby here amd its pretty much the same.
Most effective way to drop rage under focus? make aditional reductions to the enemy dps where possible removing even a single dps for 3 second.
You realise that both KD and crit debuff are both rage drops right?
well first, they are not at all like they have been on live. Live had far better lategame gear and since SL/CH mostly scale off of their gear and do therefor have a very steep value curve you really, really can't compare them. Or you can. But it does not serve the purpose of gaining any insight of RoR SL/CH.
Sure KD and crit debuff both drop rage but what are you trying to convey with that? don't you need to spend the global cooldown then?
I can tell you from experience that you can't just facetank aggro like you do with maras, every second counts if you need to get out. And the process is rather laborious as you've read before. To the point where CC remove+sprint is often times more viable than dropping rage and detaunting because you are still getting mauled at that point and still have no CC remove on you or a sprint or anything else that would actually prevent them from hitting/shooting you in the face for longer.
I reccomend you to log on your slayer now and get in a position where you'd want to drop rage+detaunt to appreciate how many GCDs you blow until you can actually start disengaging. And also how long you last compared to a mara, especially if cought in red-rage.
Again: RoR really is not in any way comparable to live.

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Tesq
Posts: 4127

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#19 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:12 pm

I agree on panzeerkasper regarding the rage +detaunt problem. Slayer have an easy life woth rampage here. I think any rowork should keep this in mind.

Detaunt should probably drop meccanic and scale with it aswell or anyway still drop rage.

Since meccanic the min duration should be 10 sec. Btw keep tbe update time 50%.
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Toldavf
Posts: 1555

Re: Slayer/Choppa Detaunts [Close Date May 4]

Post#20 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:57 pm

Tesq wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:12 pm
I agree on panzeerkasper regarding the rage +detaunt problem. Slayer have an easy life woth rampage here. I think any rowork should keep this in mind.

Detaunt should probably drop meccanic and scale with it aswell or anyway still drop rage.

Since meccanic the min duration should be 10 sec. Btw keep tbe update time 50%.
10 seconds is to long, its the entire duration of a champions challenge, detaunt should provide a window of relative safety when a team member is displaced, the window should not be large enough that the displaced player can just hobble back into guard range.

Basically if a team co-ordinates some good CC against the enemy team its a bad mechanic to have it all negated by a detaunt.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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