[Review] Guard at Level 5

[michela89]

Spoiler:

to summarise the situation:

option 1: give Guard at 5 and risk altering the Tier 1 PvP balance maybe for the better, maybe not.

option 2: wait 2-3 hours to get it at 10, without touching anything.

It certainly does not take 2-3 hours to get from 5 to 10 for a good number of the population. The only difference it would make is dependent on who has more <10 tanks in T1 at any given time. Giving both sides guard earlier is a wash - Dan

[Rydiak]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't understand the aversion to throwing tanks a bone at level 5. Level 5 and level 10 both fight in T1, right? What harm can a change like this cause?

If anything, it makes tanks more enjoyable sooner. Rather than waiting to 10, you get it at 5. Perhaps I am missing something.

[Tesq]

Another point is, that healers don't have group heal abilites, which makes it even harder to keep the guard tank alive. Guard in t1 is by no means as strong as it is in t4, yet essential to the archetype. Also it only works in grp, and in the chaotic and beautiful weirdness that is t1, it doesn't even apply that often.

Making it available to players at 1/5 gives them the opportunity to fulfil their desired role right from the start.

dps take 500 dmg
guard split
both tank and melee take 250 dmg

same dmg not more so if you can heal 500 dmg you can heal 250 and 250....guard is in any case benefical because the dmg taken is the same , plus a chance to nullify those 250 dmg, so:

- worst case scenario is guard vs no guard have no difference

-best case scenario is guard vs no guard , see guard being better than no guard.

guard is >>> than have no guard in any tier; moreover healers have no group heals being a problem is not correct, 1rst because even in live where rank was lower this what not the case and bw/sorc had aoe skill in t1 and there where counter as st pressure the sorc bw to not let em spam aoe.

guard is better even on nude character because healers can just focus heal easier

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

The comparisons with the rezz ability are false imo, the correct comparison would be healing abilities

Peter and I agree with that mindset (which again, holds no value above being two players who play the game; Balance Mod <> Balance Dev).

I'd still like to see evidence of any difference in avoidance rates between a tank at rank 5 and rank 10, if anyone has it.

Knights get Shield Rush(10%block) at 8, Snare at 9, but have aura's by 6.
Ibs get armor buff at 3 and snare at 4, but nothing avoidance till 10. They also get OF at lvl 1.
SMs have snare, 25% parry, and absorp proc by 5.
BOs get snare by 5, armor buff at 6, but no avoidance till 10.
BGs get snare by 5, bubble at 6, but no avoidance. They also get DP at lvl 1.
Chosen get the worst with Aura's and DPS stuff til they get a snare at 9.

So, other than SM and Knight very little in the way of avoidance. Some get ways of absorping damage on themselves and guarded target though.

However, with RR10 you get 12% parry or 6% block. At 5 it's 7% parry+1% block or 3% block+3% parry. At lvl 8 that increases to 7% parry and 3% block.

Basically, no one has much of any avoidance other than SMs. The overall difference in avoidance within each class from 5-10 is largely negligible. Each class gets it's skills at various lvls, at lvl 5 you will die quickly, fairly regardless. By 10 you have all the basics to play Tank, plus(with this change) maybe a few extra lvls to play with your MAIN CLASS ABILITY.

*Note: Guard is not just a "good ability" It's what makes your class. Everyone can do DPS, every class has some healing function(most suck), only Tanks can Guard*. Only Healers can Rezz. These aren't just good abilities, they are fundamental to the class, in a way that every other ability is not. But this is not the thread to argue Rezz in anyway shape or form. Make another proposal if you want. /rant

Technically we did say "any other abilities in this category" near the beginning but peter and I aren't really focused on rez -- he made the point that guard is comparative to healing, not rez, early on - Dan

*WLs don't count. No offense intended, but an ability that was just created and placed a few weeks ago doesn't hold weight in this regards imo, and it only affects the Pet.

[adamthelc]

Tanks arent just guard bots, guard is not essential to their being. Its just a very good ability. People have been leveling tanks to 40 without any problen for how long now?

The only people who care that you have to wait until 10 to get guard are people who already know how good it is. They just want to get stronger earlier.

Considering tanks already get guard in T1, its not going to create major problems giving it to them earlier. The issue to me is, the only real argument for why tanks should get guard earlier is because they want it earlier. The question should be "do they NEED it earlier?". I dont think they do.

Nobody is forcing you to guard, no matter in t1 or t4. This would be a welcome proposal for players who WANT to do it. It's not great for them, it's for their grp. If you play in grp later, it's your main job. Why should you have to wait until lvl 10?

The onus isnt really on me to give a reason why it shouldnt be moved. I know what guard is, it doesnt kill me to wait until 10, if it was given earlier I would use it earlier.

I understand the desire to have it earlier, but it seems the best argument is people want to be better faster. That argument could literally be made about any good ability in the game.

Why is it necessary to get your best ability earlier? T1 has been fun for a long time with guard at 10. People have leveled and played tanks to 40 for a long time even though guard is given at level 10.

((Personally I dont think wanting an ability earlier is a good reason to give it earlier. But if it proves to be a good enough reason, I have a whole laundry list of abilities I want earlier.)) - This is actually not the argument at all; the argument is that you're quite useless as a tank without your core, archetype defining ability. There is a plan to move abilities because of how the tiers are structured now, but it's not relevant to this discussion. - Dan

[tionblack]

I think putting good use of guard is a common sense problem and about not reading tool tips,i mean come on its the strongest buff in the game.lvl 5-6-7-8 would be nice to have it but again tier 1 is irrelevant ,just a short period that you have to deal with it until real t2-t3-t4
i think it benefit most to the tier 1 lair farmers for trading those items

[dansari]

Thank you for the riveting discussion.