[SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics

[nebelwerfer]

Nice to see an experienced choppa take part in the discussion

I personally see no problem with wear Em down as it is now.

2h choppa thrives in that it's bursty via using exhaustive blows while in the yellow for the 75% damage buff, while also being more defensive in that you don't have to sit in the red to dish out your big hits while also providing utility that DW does not.

With no more helping (50% outgoing heal debuff) you have a 100% uptime incoming and outgoing heal debuff, and if WeD procs you can also give them the cool down increaser to completely shut a single healer down. Furthermore, so long as it procs, reducing enemy chance to crit by 100% followed by CD increaser will place a massive damper on an enemies ability to take advantage of a guard kick or healer stagger.

I hear a lot of "if" and "so long as it procs" which is the issue I have with the tactic. What if it doesn't procc? The randomness of the ability is really what I want to discuss, not just how well it performs when you get lucky. With proposal 2 you would have available tools to deal with the situations you describe - just you have to build rage to do so. Is that a big problem and why?

For defensive play the slayer you don't have an ability to use defensively like "tired already" but I really hear ya on the anti crit ability. That + detaunt + maybe toughness buff is all. If you've been knocked down and go into red an offensive knockdown -> detaunt -> anti crit would be natural.

This is if you cannot just run away!

If anything, reckless blow should be tied strictly to 2H and given a "enemy is 15% more likely to be crit" debuff, seeing as now it's completely worthless as other abilities hit harder, and none of them are self debuffs.

I agree that reckless blow would need a buff, but I disagree on your solution. I think that is another topic unless you can tie it closer up to this one, so I'm going to spoiler myself

Spoiler:

make it give your next ability a guaraneteed chance to crit - this would have a good synergy with proposal 2.
Building red rage for a strong debuff combo then building red rage again for a guaranteed chance to land a critical deathblow/weakling killa.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

If proposal 2 were implemented it would mean it's only use is in the red, giving 1 exhaustive blow at +50% damage, then 1 at 75% damage, then you're in the green no matter what.

As it stands, yes luck does play a part- but you can regularly Slasha/Soft spot spam, heal debuff, snare, dot up into the red for buildup of pressure, then string together 3 and sometimes 4 exhaustive blows all at +75% damage while avoiding the 50% armor and Resistance penalty altogether.

While the long cooldowns may seem like a damper, they're in line with knockdown and knockback immunities, such that they can't and shouldn't be able to be full-retard spammed but thought out, held onto and released at the most opportune time, juggling your rage, friendly and enemy positioning and reacting to tank play.

Again I don't personally feel like Wear em down is the issue, but Strong Finish is currently useless, and reckless blow is a waste of a GCD doing less damage than go for da soft spot in the red.

If strong finish worked like Feeding on Fear (25% chance to increase crit rate by 20% and chance to be crit by 10%) it would (maybe?) be worth taking.

If reckless blow did the same damage as Weakling killa, or was given both a strong debuff on your enemy target AND making you more likely to be crit we'd see a reason to use it besides "every other exhaustive blow is on cooldown because Wear em down procced 5x in a row and someone else is healdebuffing and snaring so I don't have to."

I can't speak for slayer as I'm not 40/50 yet.

[Tesq]

ehhhh.....

so here we are talking about choppa/slayer 2h and ppl are proposing to fix stuff in a wrong way

what problem are you talking about? -->2h choppa/slayer (most chopp)
what you are trying to fix ?---> mid mastery!!!

er ...what?! these are 2 completly diff things

1- to make it faster, mid mastery have no problem per se
2-the problem is that in war you build 2/3 mastery and not just one...

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


3-buy an off general tactic which is not so general because it basically only work for 1 spamable skill and totaly deny most of left mastery stuff (and finishers) is too much of a downside; also that would solve nothing because by simply change the tactic that way you will end with dual weild choppas slot ini debuff tactic.....
4-a ini debuff tactic could be done but the target for the fix is "was that yer finger" which is basically half the sw tactic "wrist slash" ( just give em a look and tell me the opposite camon... ) and lack the other half in form of ini buff/debuff....
5- aka make 15% crit tactic restric to 2h user and remove the absurd part about just "mid matery skills" ( youa re alredy putting 13+1 pt just for that in that mnastery it should be worth to be use with any skill while in 2h....; this mean that the choppa/slayer will most likely benefith whatever 2h build they do which is DA POINT HERE (especially because you ALWAYS pick left mastery as a second or primary mastery in any build regardless...), you can then fix the propper tactic for the ini debuff ).

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

6-about 50% tactic, proc chance is in line with stuff like wh tactic (flowing accusation) , that change would result in a nerf imo, atm like 2h you can spam finisher if you want and are lucky enough (and it dosent matter if 2h/dual weild...), the only problem with that and difference compared to wh tactic is the forced ICD of 5 sec. Im talking about the fact that you need 5 sec to get back in yellow while on wh the same type of tactic take 1 GCD by use 1 random skill and you can re spam finisher or re try to spam em like the RNG god commands.....

The only way i see anything good enough as a fix here is either :
A-increase the % since it have 5 sec downtime which a similar ok tactic in game dont have (this feel op)
B-Make the tact build rage faster (maybe only while in green ?) so that the downtime is lowered which is anyway what tactic suppose to do (aka 50% would make downtime 2.5 sec vs 5 which is more acceptable and half the value of an active tactic (wh) vs a passive tactic (chopp)-
Cas per Breaking Point/Strong Finish this tactic lack a bind to 2h , any dual weild (especially op slayer rampage banana) that put points there will just benefith from a cheap investiment for spam aoe exausting blow like candy. IT would probably better BIND this too to 2h only.

"when you have equip a great weapon your rage while in no rage build 50% faster and every exausting blow have a chance to build again 25% rage".

SUMMARY
Breaking Point/Strong Finish--->changed from bind to mastery skills to bind to 2h ( give a sense of build to this tactic).
Was that yer finger--->changed to debuff 120 wep skill and 80 ini as SW one (fix cross mirroring in game).
Violent Impacts/Wear Em Down--->changed to: if 2h is equip you build rage double the speed while in green and have a 50% to regain 25% rage on exhausting blow ( make this tactic do what it suppose to do)


alternativly crit tactc if is still considered uselss it could be change to only buff 10% crit and 5% parry while in 2h cutting the head of the bull once and for all.

[Reesh]

I don't like either of the two proposals.

1. There are already lots of ini/tough debuffs flowing just from gear sets, it won't improve situation by a tiny bit. If 2h sl/ch is looking for spike, 15% flat out crit is better, though it's not THAT good for sl, as he lacks a reliable crit modificator source.
2. As NoRKaLKiLLa said, it's not that... good. Whole idea of the 2h tree is to maintain the yellow state, keeping the armor/resistances intact, while losing a good chunk of sustained damage in order to swap into a quick spike attacks of going in-and-out.

Best way of improving it is to completly eliminate the RNG factor, but at the same time, hopping from yellow to green is too much of a gimp for these classes, that has to stay close without almost any defensive tools for getting out of the heat.
Maybe making the tactic more specific, like increasing it's chance to 75% instead of 50%, or tying it into certain skills like:
-weaklin' killa/deathblow
and
-devastate/no more helpin'

Will now put you back to furious and won't remove your whole rage.

[Darosh]

Can't be **** to write my a wall of text on this Smartphone, so I miht aswell pitch it to you:

This meant to be a PM to Nebelwerfer
~ I should stop doing the forum thing with this device of hell ~, didn't intend to hijack his proposal with a counter proposal, discard/disregard the below.

Note: I skipped alot of this discusion, in hindsight I could have just pointed towards Tesq's post above as he happened to cover a similar idea, kudos.

Spoiler:

RNG tactic:
Upon using a specific (or any [besides Spellbreaker] ~ depending on numbers, yadayada) 2h-exclusive finisher rage gneration and decay are stopped, and rage drop is postponed for 5ish seconds.

Almost every 2h finisher has 7-30s CD and requires group effort (WW) or tradeoffs (ST w/&w/o PT and equivalents/CF) to be lowered ~ standardized 5s-10s burst rota is being maintained anyway.

Postponing of the rage drop could be complemented with drawback/tradeoff (e.g.: 2.5s red-esque malus past rage drop).

Everything remains exclusive to 2h specs, requires a tactic and group efforts after all, can backfire badly and brings the reliabilty of 2h burst in line with Sorc/BW/WL/Magus/Engi/... (said 5-10s CD/burst cycles).

I might aswell...
Abbd.:
Alternative/additional drawback:
After postponed rage drop the rage generation is halved for 2.5-5s.

Important: 10s ICD on tactic invocation, above drawbacks scale at best with finishers used during the initial 5s rage-freeze.

Breaking point:
Rage generation is tampered with in a similar manner.

I like messing with meta-systems... turning SL/CH class mechanic into a more complex one is, imho, the way to go.

E: Fixed phrasing, spelling... dat autocorrect, adding the english dictionary just made it worse, lol.

[Wdova]

Spoiler:

ehhhh.....

so here we are talking about choppa/slayer 2h and ppl are proposing to fix stuff in a wrong way

what problem are you talking about? -->2h choppa/slayer (most chopp)
what you are trying to fix ?---> mid mastery!!!

er ...what?! these are 2 completly diff things

1- to make it faster, mid mastery have no problem per se
2-the problem is that in war you build 2/3 mastery and not just one...

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


3-buy an off general tactic which is not so general because it basically only work for 1 spamable skill and totaly deny most of left mastery stuff (and finishers) is too much of a downside; also that would solve nothing because by simply change the tactic that way you will end with dual weild choppas slot ini debuff tactic.....
4-a ini debuff tactic could be done but the target for the fix is "was that yer finger" which is basically half the sw tactic "wrist slash" ( just give em a look and tell me the opposite camon... ) and lack the other half in form of ini buff/debuff....
5- aka make 15% crit tactic restric to 2h user and remove the absurd part about just "mid matery skills" ( youa re alredy putting 13+1 pt just for that in that mnastery it should be worth to be use with any skill while in 2h....; this mean that the choppa/slayer will most likely benefith whatever 2h build they do which is DA POINT HERE (especially because you ALWAYS pick left mastery as a second or primary mastery in any build regardless...), you can then fix the propper tactic for the ini debuff ).

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

6-about 50% tactic, proc chance is in line with stuff like wh tactic (flowing accusation) , that change would result in a nerf imo, atm like 2h you can spam finisher if you want and are lucky enough (and it dosent matter if 2h/dual weild...), the only problem with that and difference compared to wh tactic is the forced ICD of 5 sec. Im talking about the fact that you need 5 sec to get back in yellow while on wh the same type of tactic take 1 GCD by use 1 random skill and you can re spam finisher or re try to spam em like the RNG god commands.....

The only way i see anything good enough as a fix here is either :
A-increase the % since it have 5 sec downtime which a similar ok tactic in game dont have (this feel op)
B-Make the tact build rage faster (maybe only while in green ?) so that the downtime is lowered which is anyway what tactic suppose to do (aka 50% would make downtime 2.5 sec vs 5 which is more acceptable and half the value of an active tactic (wh) vs a passive tactic (chopp)-
Cas per Breaking Point/Strong Finish this tactic lack a bind to 2h , any dual weild (especially op slayer rampage banana) that put points there will just benefith from a cheap investiment for spam aoe exausting blow like candy. IT would probably better BIND this too to 2h only.

"when you have equip a great weapon your rage while in no rage build 50% faster and every exausting blow have a chance to build again 25% rage".

SUMMARY
Breaking Point/Strong Finish--->changed from bind to mastery skills to bind to 2h ( give a sense of build to this tactic).
Was that yer finger--->changed to debuff 120 wep skill and 80 ini as SW one (fix cross mirroring in game).
Violent Impacts/Wear Em Down--->changed to: if 2h is equip you build rage double the speed while in green and have a 50% to regain 25% rage on exhausting blow ( make this tactic do what it suppose to do)


alternativly crit tactc if is still considered uselss it could be change to only buff 10% crit and 5% parry while in 2h cutting the head of the bull once and for all.

To be honest your proposals about Breaking Point/Strong finish to be tied to 2H insted of one mastery does make more sence and I agree with this.

Violent Impacts/Wear Em Down alredy has formula 50% chance to regain 25% rage. Tied it to 2H and increase rage gain in green by double means You can get in yellow every 2,5 seconds so it could help to be in at least yellow more often.

Adding 80ini debuff to Was that yer finger would be too much if You will get 15% crit chance for all of your attacks as 2Hander.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

Adding 80ini debuff to Was that yer finger would be too much if You will get 15% crit chance for all of your attacks as 2Hander.

Sw have a core tactic, if 1 core is balanced to be = to 1 core then both are equals. And order can still put 60 points in ini as destru does. It is not that hard, dev server side even add +35 to ini end calculation x patchnote so the min ammount you need to not explode is currently 295 ini vs 330 of before.(and these are with tootips max values so you can even drop 15 and arrive to 280 ini..)

Anyway i said mirror it without buff part, SW tactic even stat steal.those stats....and that part is clearly broken...

If it looks like a whine and sounds like a whine, it's probably a whine - Dan

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

Adding 80ini debuff to Was that yer finger would be too much if You will get 15% crit chance for all of your attacks as 2Hander.

Sw have a core tactic, if 1 core is balanced to be = to 1 core then both are equals. And order can still put 60 points in ini as destru does. It is not that hard, dev server side even add +35 to ini end calculation x patchnote so the min ammount you need to not explode is currently 295 ini vs 330 of before.(and these are with tootips max values so you can even drop 15 and arrive to 280 ini..)

Anyway i said mirror it without buff part, SW tactic even stat steal.those stats....and that part is clearly broken...

If it looks like a whine and sounds like a whine, it's probably a whine - Dan

Where is the whine im one of those which do not ever asked the sw ini debuff to be nerf, read even GoM nerf thread i give even on that point my opinion about the ini debuff being fine, the stack is fine, the value is fine it wasnt the ini scale and was me that suggested for first to add 30 ish ini to make scale ini better and the prob would be solve and it was patched that way .so idk where is the whine?

-Power creep of 2 core tactics should be more or less the same, imo thats balance "aim"not whine

-op proposed the mirriring of ini debuff not me im pro that on the correct tactic and giving my idea about again show me the whine because as it stand now

-Not contr sw ini debuff
-Not contr investiment in ini to counter it
-Not pro necessary change strong fish for chopp into ini debuff i said if it should be done it should be done on correct tactic man...

If the addition on the stat steal part was to much just spoiler that but i didnt say that the ini debuff is NOT fine. I even said choppa should NOT have the steal component...what whine?

[dansari]

Where you said "and that part is clearly broken"

[Tesq]

Where you said "and that part is clearly broken"

wouldn't be on choppa?